Bachmann C-19

Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

Retired Oik
27 Oct 2009
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North West Norfolk
Does anyone have experience of setting up the chuff triggers on this loco - it looks a bit complex :oops:
 
R

RogerK

Registered
3 Jun 2018
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I don't have one, but here is the link to the Bachmann Product Reference materials. Scroll down the pane until you find the listings for the C-19. There is one on how to locate the chuff adjustor, although it doesn't say how to adjust it. No listing for a manual, however.

Hope this helps ...
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
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Tamworth, Staffs.
Can you point me at the manuels? ;)
 
R

RogerK

Registered
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The top of the Product Reference listings has a section on manuals, but very little there except a generic Big Hauler instruction. The only Bachmann Large Scale I have is the 2-4-2 Lyn and it didn't come with a manual/instructions, just a set of schematics.
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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I thought the chuff trigger was a connection on the board, should be a normal negative going trigger, hook right to your sound card.

What card are you using?

The chuff adjustor is a small piece of plastic with a "flag" sticking up that interrupts the optical sensor beam, it rides back and forth in the cylinders.

You can fine tune it to come out exactly when you want, normally not needed.

here's the pin connections: https://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/dwg/dwgs/LS_C-19.pin_assignment.pdf

Not difficult at all.. you want pin J1-5

You go here to get the documents you want: Bachmann Trains Online - Contact Us

Just scroll down to the Large Scale section, and you will see several C-19 documents.

Greg
 
beavercreek

beavercreek

Travel, Art, Theatre, Music, Photography, Trains
24 Oct 2009
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I think that Rhino runs analogue so it is probably a sound card like Phoenix that he wants to sync the chuff with instead of auto chuff.... but I could be wrong
 
maxi-model

maxi-model

UK/US/ROW steam narrow gauge railways 1:1
27 Oct 2009
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Bucks/Oxon/Northants area
I remember going to GRC in Cheltenham a few years ago to get Andrew to fit a Phoenix card to my DC controlled Bachmann K-27. He would not fit using the onboard chuff triggers. He wanted to activate the chuff by using magnets mounted on the tender wheels and a reed switch. These are a standard option for the Phoenix card I selected. Again when I looked for advise on using the triggers on the Bachmann 3 truck Shay, for a self install on another Phoenix card, all the replies said "don't use the on board triggers, use magnets on a wheel and a reed switch". Seems a lot of people don't trust Bachmann's triggers (reliability ?) Max
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
22,061
38
Tamworth, Staffs.
Early Bachmann 'triggers' were a springy strip, pressing on an enlarged plastic section on the axle. - Purely mechanical, and suffered from chronic 'switch bounce'.. YOu either had to build electronics to de-bounce the signal, or suffer with syncopated chuffing! :eek::(
 
Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

Retired Oik
27 Oct 2009
23,787
49
North West Norfolk
Early Bachmann 'triggers' were a springy strip, pressing on an enlarged plastic section on the axle. - Purely mechanical, and suffered from chronic 'switch bounce'.. YOu either had to build electronics to de-bounce the signal, or suffer with syncopated chuffing! :eek::(
Ah, and that, I think is part of the answer.

I don't spend sleepless nights, but I often muse on things that send me into a deep reverie, and there's something in the manual that indicates - I'll give it a paraphrase - you can connect the outputs from your sound card to the +ve and -ve (identifiable on their photo) if you like.

Now, back in the Aristo sound tender thread, I remember John S waxing lyrical about the workings of the hall sensor - so suddenly my mind says that I need to connect the 9v feed that I'm getting out of my voltage regulator (in the circuit) to power the optical sensors and thus provide the typical Bachmann sound trigger switch effect >:)


I'm off to the shed later - I've been on other duties today - a member of the choir went to join the angels and we were trying to emulate the heavenly choir :oops::oops::oops::oops:

(there's and emoji for this :tmi: but not one for covering the ears :devil::devil: )
 
Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

Retired Oik
27 Oct 2009
23,787
49
North West Norfolk
Um - not :(

Nice try but ..........:smoke::smoke::smoke:

From the sound board (Bachmann Annie - tweaked) the two chuff leads go to the tabs 'chuff sensor' and 'gnd' on the main C-19 board.

Well, there isn't a gnd tab, but there are three labelled J1-7 gnd, which I assume to be the same thing.

When I have power to the track (which is feeding the sound board via a rectifier and a voltage regulator) if I connect these two leads above, I get a chuff.

But I don't have any way of knowing which of the loco leads which connect to the tender are the chuff sensor leads, so don't have a way of testing them, nor do I necessarily know whether they emulate a typical Bachmann switch, or whether they need more complex wiring.

The manual suggests that those two terminals should provide the simple Bachmann 'make to chuff' - but I wouldn't be the first person to fail when trying to use the cylinder mounted chuff actuators. Many people have reverted to magnets on the tender wheel with a reed switch.


Hmmm :think::think::think::think::think::think::think::think:
 
Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

Retired Oik
27 Oct 2009
23,787
49
North West Norfolk
I thought the chuff trigger was a connection on the board, should be a normal negative going trigger, hook right to your sound card.

What card are you using?

The chuff adjustor is a small piece of plastic with a "flag" sticking up that interrupts the optical sensor beam, it rides back and forth in the cylinders.

You can fine tune it to come out exactly when you want, normally not needed.

here's the pin connections: https://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/dwg/dwgs/LS_C-19.pin_assignment.pdf

Not difficult at all.. you want pin J1-5

You go here to get the documents you want: Bachmann Trains Online - Contact Us

Just scroll down to the Large Scale section, and you will see several C-19 documents.

Greg
Yep, thanks.

So, as post #10, I've got the sound card leads in the right places, and the chuff will sound when tested, but it won't sound when the cylinders move back and forth - frustrating.

The problem is that the C-19 wiring diagram doesn't give the whole picture - I can't work out what the optical sensors are doing electrically.

How, why and where do the four wires from the optical sensor get to the single chuff sensor tab and the GND tab - 'J1-7 GND' -(presumably common return)?
 
Neil Robinson

Neil Robinson

Registered
24 Oct 2009
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N W Leicestershire
Message (conversation) started.
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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The K-27 had an inverted sense to the chuff trigger, so I guess that is why that dealer did not want to use the on-board chuff electronics, which are more accurate and stable, too bad, there's plenty of documentation on using a single transistor to put the chuff trigger right....

He was well informed to not want to use the Shay triggers, they are a pain, and usually do not stay working without periodic adjustment. That said, I would use them to get the prototypical timing and the fact that they were 3 cylinders, right?

On the C-19, did you get all the documents? isn't the board in the tender?

I see that my link did not take you to the list of documents somehow...

Bachmann Trains Online - Contact Us

That should make it easier to find...

I see the chuff connection on the board in the tender...

You should have downloaded at least this document: https://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/dwg/dwgs/LS_C-19.wiring.pdf

There are TWELVE pdf files on the site for the C-19.

Greg
 
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maxi-model

maxi-model

UK/US/ROW steam narrow gauge railways 1:1
27 Oct 2009
4,345
8
Bucks/Oxon/Northants area
He was well informed to not want to use the Shay triggers, they are a pain, and usually do not stay working without periodic adjustment. That said, I would use them to get the prototypical timing and the fact that they were 3 cylinders, right?
Thread drift warning ! Having travelled behind the 3 cylinder 4-6-0 locomotive "Leander" - over Shap to Carlisle and then from there over the Settle line - I am familiar with its unusual (if you are used to 2 & 4 cylinders) "waltz time" exhaust beat as I understand the cranks are disposed at 120 degree intervals. The same is evident when observing the bottom end of a Shay engine. So, I suppose 3 magnets arranged in the form of an equilateral triangle on a wheel should at least replicate the beat.......if nothing else :) Max
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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you could put magnets on the moving parts that have the switch contact and perhaps then 3 reed switches... I have not had that part of the loco opened in front of me, but I was under the impression there were 3 moving parts going up and down and hitting switch contacts at the "top" of the cylinders.

Greg
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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I forgot to re-affirm you have to power the main board, which powers the circuitry for the optical chuff triggers.

You need to take the chuff connection on the tender board to your chuff trigger input on whatever you are using... it will pull to ground when it "wants" a chuff.

3 wires to the bachmann board, power, ground and the chuff trigger wire to your sound board.

Greg

p.s. you never replied what sound card you are trying to hook to.
 
Neil Robinson

Neil Robinson

Registered
24 Oct 2009
9,281
3
N W Leicestershire
He was well informed to not want to use the Shay triggers, they are a pain, and usually do not stay working without periodic adjustment. That said, I would use them to get the prototypical timing and the fact that they were 3 cylinders, right?

Greg
As it happens I'm currently working on fitting sound to a Bachmann three truck Shay. I can't find any reference to sound triggers on my example. Mind you, it's purely academic as I'm using an ESU decoder. In the past, on conventional steam outline models, I've been happy with their synchronisation adjustment without the use of external sensing.
 
John S

John S

Registered
5 Nov 2017
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Exeter, Devon, UK
Refer back to the Optocoupler as mentioned previously, non teccy simple explanation on the basic principle of how it works, and a simple test, is to use a Multimeter set to Ohms, lowest setting to begin with, connect meter to GND (E) and (C), break beam of light, meter should show a difference in resistance.

Basically the same principle, in the OptoCoupler the LED and Phototransistor are within the same encapsulated package, in a Optical Sensor they are separated by a gap or slot.

In the Optical Sensor the LED is always ON, thus a beam of continuous light is shone onto the BASE of the Phototransistor, which allows the BASE to conduct, which then allows the Emitter to FLOW via the COLLECTOR, produces a NEGATIVE Trigger, (HIGH/ON/1), thus a Chuff Sound.

Conversely break the beam of Light, thus deprive the Base of the Phototransistor of light, the Emitter now, is not connected to the Collector, (LOW/OFF/0), no chuff!

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Last edited:
Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

Retired Oik
27 Oct 2009
23,787
49
North West Norfolk
I forgot to re-affirm you have to power the main board, which powers the circuitry for the optical chuff triggers.

You need to take the chuff connection on the tender board to your chuff trigger input on whatever you are using... it will pull to ground when it "wants" a chuff.

3 wires to the bachmann board, power, ground and the chuff trigger wire to your sound board.

Greg

p.s. you never replied what sound card you are trying to hook to.
Greg, the sound board is the basic Annie sound board with George Schreyer's enhancements.

The Bachmann manual is a bit half-hearted about power the board - like you may want to do it, but I tried that last night without result.

Actually, it seems you need 4 wires - because the power inputs ask for a +ve and -ve

I've gone through all the Bachmann pages, but the main wiring diagram is - to me - unhelpful. It shows 4 wires from each cylinder optical sensor, and shows where they plug into the loco board, but from there they are untraceable.