Aristo-Craft Southern Pacific GS-4

[baldwin 47]

The wheel centres remain the same, because they are going to go on the same axles, right? So there would be no need to futz around with the position of the cylinders. You seem intent in spending a great deal of money here - the wheels alone, if machined, are likely around £250 or more. Who is going to do all this work?

Hi
Unfortunately when you fit smaller wheels the ride height of the boiler/cab reduces, so you would need to compensate for that by basically fitting shims above the axles in the frame.
Otherwise the cab roof hits the top of the tender, for example.
I have been told that the cylinders should be lowered by a corresponding amount to ensure that they remain inline with the wheel centre as before

 

[baldwin 47]

The wheel centres remain the same, because they are going to go on the same axles, right? So there would be no need to futz around with the position of the cylinders. You seem intent in spending a great deal of money here - the wheels alone, if machined, are likely around £250 or more. Who is going to do all this work?

I was talking to a highly recommended artisan, on Monday, who incidentally agrees broadly with your cost estimates

 

[tac foley]

Hi
Unfortunately when you fit smaller wheels the ride height of the boiler/cab reduces, so you would need to compensate for that by basically fitting shims above the axles in the frame.
Otherwise the cab roof hits the top of the tender, for example.
I have been told that the cylinders should be lowered by a corresponding amount to ensure that they remain inline with the wheel centre as before

The lowering amounts to 0.125" - or 1/8th inch in old money. As for 'hitting the top of the tender..................................take a look here -




Anyhow, there's not much more I can offer you by way of advice. An old acquaintance back in Canada opines that it would all be a big spend for zero return, and to leave it as it is. THE White Pass maven, Borries Burkhardt over on the other side of the Great Water, might be you next call, or rather, your artisan's next call.

 

[baldwin 47]

I was talking to a highly recommended artisan, on Monday, who incidentally agrees broadly with your cost estimates

I would ask him to do the work on the frame,coupling rods etc.
The smaller wheels would in addition to reducing the ride height, also be too far apart if I used the original frame.
No 3 driver would be in the same position from the horizontal perspective as the original so as to use the existing rods as much as possible. Only the main coupling rod would need replacing

 

[tac foley]

I would ask him to do the work on the frame,coupling rods etc.
The smaller wheels would in addition to reducing the ride height, also be too far apart if I used the original frame.
No 3 driver would be in the same position from the horizontal perspective as the original so as to use the existing rods as much as possible. Only the main coupling rod would need replacing

The loco has no frame of any kind, just a pair of articulated motor units.

 

[baldwin 47]

I would ask him to do the work on the frame,coupling rods etc.
The smaller wheels would in addition to reducing the ride height, also be too far apart if I used the original frame.
No 3 driver would be in the same position from the horizontal perspective as the original so as to use the existing rods as much as possible. Only the main coupling rod would need replacing

Hi
I know the frame is basically 2 articulated units, but if you have two 44” new drivers installed next to each other, you are increasing the gap between them by at least 1/4 inch at the very least, probably nearer half an inch. The original drivers already look wide apart at 1/2 inch already.
Well many thanks for your help, Surely someone must have done this already, I would like to see the results

 

[PhilP]

If you *really* want one that is correct, then get someone to build you one from scratch..

Then you can get it at the right height, with the right size wheels in the right places.........

But unless you were to accept the compromises made to make our models go round track we can fit in a garden, where are you going to run it?
LGB has articulated drive arrangements, and lots of what an engineer would call 'slop' in the system. - The only way it can be made to negotiate our tight radius track.

PhilP.

 

[baldwin 47]

If you *really* want one that is correct, then get someone to build you one from scratch..

Then you can get it at the right height, with the right size wheels in the right places.........

But unless you were to accept the compromises made to make our models go round track we can fit in a garden, where are you going to run it?
LGB has articulated drive arrangements, and lots of what an engineer would call 'slop' in the system. - The only way it can be made to negotiate our tight radius track.

PhilP.

Hi
Thanks for your message.
My intention all along was to make a frame/wheel unit which would fit under the existing boiler cab in exactly the same way as the original Lgb unit, BUT for display purposes only. I would like it to be a rolling chassis only and not to run in a garden setting.
Ideally it would be interchangeable with the original and be reversible if I decided to sell.
Clearly this is no simple mod, further complicated by having a slightly longer boiler designed to fit the Lgb driver dimensions.
I get the impression that some people view this as unnecessary, or unduly complicated. They could be right.
But just google the real 73, and compare the side elevation with the model, the difference in driver diameter is self evident .
So I will continue to explore the possibilities, at least for a while and if I decide to go ahead, maybe send you some pictures of the results, good or bad.
Alternatively maybe I’ll just blacken the drivers and save myself a lot of work !,
Best regards and stay safe

 

[PhilP]

It is just it seemed a great deal of very expensive time-consuming work, for no great gain.

But we each have our own pleasures and limits from the hobby.

I was just trying to point out some of the compromises are there to enable the model to be used.

I wonder, if a commissioned painting, would be an idea?

Whatever you decide, good luck, and we would love to see the process and results.

PhilP.

 

[tac foley]

Looking forward to seeing the results, and BTW, Phil, at the time of production, LGB's production design philosophy was based on the unbending [sorry] need for EVERY item of rolling stock - passenger/freight/special purpose cars, AND every locomotive, to be able to operate flawlessly on R1 curves. With items like WP #73, this was a ludicrous state of affairs, but simply reflected EPL's original floor-toy foundations and ethos.

 

[Fred2179G]

Have you looked at the EBT Mikados? My understanding is that they are basically identical to the WP&Y mikes, but with larger wheels.
It might be a lot easier to take an RYM EBT Mikado and add smaller driving wheels.
Rich Yoder Models - Fine Quality 1:20 Scale Brass Models

 

[tac foley]

Have you looked at the EBT Mikados? My understanding is that they are basically identical to the WP&Y mikes, but with larger wheels.
It would be a lot easier to take an RYM EBT Mikado and add smaller driving wheels.
Rich Yoder Models - Fine Quality 1:20 Scale Brass Models

Similar, but no coconut. Accucraft built them to 1/20.3 scale, not 1/22.5. The cylinders are way different, too, different valve system. Then there is the little matter of finding one here in UK. I've only ever seen one for sale, around 2010. It was a pound short of £6000.

 

[Fred2179G]

Accucraft built them to 1/20.3 scale, not 1/22.5.

Why would anyone want a model of a 3' gauge loco in 1:22.5?

 

[tac foley]

Why would anyone want a model of a 3' gauge loco in 1:22.5?

Better to ask LGB, who made the WP mike like that....basically, I'd guess that because nobody else was doing it - and the line was celebrating its centenary at that time.

Marklin have just produced a three-truck Shay in 1/22.5 scale...same deal as the WP mike. Earlier 'super-models' from LGB, built by German company Magnus and Japanese Aster, included a 3ft Shay and K27, couple of Meyers, a 3ft 6in South African Class 25 and condensing tender and a Chinese freight loco - all for 45mm track, and mostly wrong as such. For me the biggest boo-boo came with the Magnus 2-6-6-0 Mallet - note the name on the tender - 'Bridal Will'. This is, in real life, the Bridal VEIL Lumber Co', a 3ft line named after the famous waterfall in the Columbia river Gorge. Also an Indian Government Railway express loco that ran on 5ft 6in gauge track.......

​

 

[baldwin 47]

Hi, and thanks for your continued interest.
I guess I’m coming at this from a different perspective than some other people here.
Although I have built and enjoyed a garden railway a few years ago, my main interest is scale modelling, having been in the hobby since the early 1960s, following US prototypes, and recently narrow gauge in particular.
I’ve done some work for Kalmbach in the 1980s including advertising and calendar subjects, attached are a couple of examples.
I can only say that if LGB had built the exact same White Pass engine back then , but in HOn3, it would not have sold well at all due to the obvious issue with driver diameter.
I also include a photo of a White pass 70 series locomotive produced back in 68 by United, a Japanese firm, and imported by PFM which came up on eBay a week ago. The dimensions are highly accurate, and that includes the correct scale drivers.Just compare with the LGB engine and it shows that way back then, the Japanese builders, left to their own devices, could produce a fine product that compares well with and in some respects beats current models.
Over the years I’ve seen perfectly good models trashed by what the manufacturer always presumed was the likely customer base because the model had some minor discrepancy or other. These things can get out of hand.
Scale modelling is a different market I guess, and fidelity to prototype is the main thing, whereas G scale has to appeal to a broader audience, and run well outside.
I
I guess it’s very much horses for courses, and finescale and outdoor railways don’t always mix, and can’t really be expected to.

 

[tac foley]

Hi, and thanks for your continued interest.
I guess I’m coming at this from a different perspective than some other people here.
Although I have built and enjoyed a garden railway a few years ago, my main interest is scale modelling, having been in the hobby since the early 1960s, following US prototypes, and recently narrow gauge in particular.
I’ve done some work for Kalmbach in the 1980s including advertising and calendar subjects, attached are a couple of examples.
I can only say that if LGB had built the exact same White Pass engine back then , but in HOn3, it would not have sold well at all due to the obvious issue with driver diameter.
I also include a photo of a White pass 70 series locomotive produced back in 68 by United, a Japanese firm, and imported by PFM which came up on eBay a week ago. The dimensions are highly accurate, and that includes the correct scale drivers.Just compare with the LGB engine and it shows that way back then, the Japanese builders, left to their own devices, could produce a fine product that compares well with and in some respects beats current models.
Over the years I’ve seen perfectly good models trashed by what the manufacturer always presumed was the likely customer base because the model had some minor discrepancy or other. These things can get out of hand.
Scale modelling is a different market I guess, and fidelity to prototype is the main thing, whereas G scale has to appeal to a broader audience, and run well outside.
I
I guess it’s very much horses for courses, and finescale and outdoor railways don’t always mix, and can’t really be expected to.

'G' is not a scale per se, but a collection scales that run on 45mm gauge track, to the exclusion of Gauge I, for which 45mm gauge track represents the UK and much of the Free World's standard rail gauge.

Mehano in former Yugoslavia made a half-way decent model of 73 but it ran on H0 track - very odd indeed. It was on sale in the Skagway visiters' store.

 

[Paul M]

I guess it’s very much horses for courses, and finescale and outdoor railways don’t always mix, and can’t really be expected to.
Some people do finescale garden railways to great effect, but in the main, with the inevitable rough and tumble (literally sometimes) most will make compromises. LGB is fantastic for what it does, which is pretty much what it says on the tin, they work well in the main, gheyre pretty robust and last for years. But you just need to make allowances for its elasticated rulers.