2 Steam Trams with Deltang Radio Control, My Loco Sound cards and LiPo Batteries.

dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
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Panic-not Jon..

By Default, there is a feature in your Deltang receiver called Low Voltage Cutoff (known as LVC, for short).. This 'looks' at the battery voltage and, assumes from the value, how many Lithium-cells are present (even if you are not using Lithium batteries!).
It will then monitor the voltage, and if it should go below the threshold set for 'however-many' cells it thinks there are, it will shop the loco, and flash the LED to tell you. - If you take-heed of this, and recharge the batteries, all will be well.

Aside:
LVC catches out those who do not disable it / have it disabled, who use a PP3 9volt battery. these are just above one of the thresholds, so do not 'last very long', as the receiver shuts-down after a very short time!
This is if NOT using Lithium batteries.

Here is a rather scabby set of 18650 cells (3S) with a board on..

View attachment 261908

2S boards, are smaller (obviously):

View attachment 261909

You might find this information useful?:


PhilP.
Your link for some reason does not open. I have been looking closer at the Micron Site and there appear to be Batteries with BMS built in. So looks like I should have had these, though not compared them for size as yet. Issue is with the circuitry buikt in does one link them up to make a pair? Neg to Pos with 3rd Wire for balanced charge and other neg + pos to Motor via Boards.
 
PhilP

PhilP

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Jon,
You are not able to take SINGLE protected cells, and join them together to make a protected 'pack'..

The board 'size' (number of cells it supports) has to match the 'pack-size'.
 
F

Fred Mills

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Blub blub blub, so I am now confused. Phil is it that you are saying that the 2 LiPo’s that I have that I have joined together to give me a nominal 7.4 Volts could be eronious in that they have no sort of internal protection? They have been joined together using the 3 wire technique for Balanced Charging as shown by Micron RC.

My Batteries are Nano-Tech 750mAh 35c 1S LiPo 3.7v each.

If I need something what is it and how big and where should it go? Bearing in mind that my Battery Pack has a 3 pin Molex 2mm plug that goes into my Charger, that I have not as yet used. Plus how do I know when the Battery is geting to levels that demand charging, lack of performance or real smoke emitting from the Battery?
"Real smoke" in this situation is usually referred to as "Magic Smoke"...!!
 
Tony Walsham

Tony Walsham

Manufacturer of RCS Radio Control.
25 Oct 2009
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Casino, NSW
....and then you get total novices who want to do Battery R/C on the cheap with built in el cheapo Li-Po cells in parallel and no balancing and no protection pcb's. They get a bit tetchy when I advice them not to do it that way.
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
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St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
Jon,
You are not able to take SINGLE protected cells, and join them together to make a protected 'pack'..

The board 'size' (number of cells it supports) has to match the 'pack-size'.
Ok so that understood.

now why does the link not work? Any ideas as I am looking for a solution.
 
Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

Retired Oik
27 Oct 2009
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....and then you get total novices who want to do Battery R/C on the cheap with built in el cheapo Li-Po cells in parallel and no balancing and no protection pcb's. They get a bit tetchy when I advice them not to do it that way.
As an amateur, I've stuck with NiMh - not because I'm a complete Luddite, but because I considered Li-po technology a bridge too far for me. That's not to say that people shouldn't get into it.

I think my decision was right for me; what's becoming very obvious here is that there is a lot to learn regarding Li-po before you can do it satisfactorily. In that respect, this is a cracking thread of Jon's because he's been prepared to talk through the issues, warts and all :clap::clap::clap:
 
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JimmyB

JimmyB

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When I decided to try battery power, and having a little understanding of capacity, and that a battery's capacity will determine (amongst other things) how long your loco would run, LiPo was the only option to provide sufficient capacity in a small size. I did spend a few months deliberating, reading various blogs (many thanks ge_rik ge_rik ), and am still vary, feeling the battery temperature during charging, though I only charge at 2 amps. currently I am very satisfied, and have now added some new knowledge and skills, but far from being an expert.
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
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now why does the link not work? Any ideas as I am looking for a solution.
No idea! :(
The site / links work for some, and not others.. - I am guessing it is a security thang, of some-sort..

Web-design, not being 'core' to my business, is pretty low on the 'to-do' list..

I have to fight the Midlands traffic, now.. :(:eek::banghead::banghead:


When I get back, I will convert the page(s) into a 'pdf' for you Jon.. :)
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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maybe try the link without the "S" in https:// ??


Sometimes certain browser add-ins reject certain ssl certificates....

Greg
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
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St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
No idea! :(
The site / links work for some, and not others.. - I am guessing it is a security thang, of some-sort..

Web-design, not being 'core' to my business, is pretty low on the 'to-do' list..

I have to fight the Midlands traffic, now.. :(:eek::banghead::banghead:


When I get back, I will convert the page(s) into a 'pdf' for you Jon.. :)
Thanks Phil.
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
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St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
Ok so some of my fears are real and I need something to sort them. But I am not sure how many will have looked at the dangers. This Vid is a worthwhile look to understand the dangers and what not to do with LiPo.


some will perhaps suggest scaremongering and to be honest I would never have got into LiPo Batteries except for the fact that I needed smaller than NiMh for these two Steam Trams and another couple of projects in mind. I may even look at de-sounding these two and going to the minimum NiMh that I can for the Deltang that I have invested money and much brain and time power (with a lot if helpJ on.

“Time is an illusion Lunch Time Doubly so“ quote from Hitch Hikers. Lunch Time ah. Eer Festival at the Scout Hut on then.
 
ge_rik

ge_rik

British narrow gauge (esp. Southwold and W&LLR)
24 Oct 2009
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As an amateur, I've stuck with NiMh - not because I'm a complete Luddite, but because I considered Li-po technology a bridge too far for me. That's not to say that people shouldn't get into it.

I think my decision was right for me; what's becoming very obvious here is that there is a lot to learn regarding Li-po before you can do it satisfactorily. In that respect, this is a cracking thread of Jon's because he's been prepared to talk through the issues, warts and all :clap::clap::clap:
I opted for li-ions when I first converted to battery power eight years ago. For me it was a no-brainer, because all my locos are quite small and there was simply no room for ten NiMhs. Li-ions have enabled me to add battery RC to even the smallest loco and still have room to add plenty of weight.

Rik
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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There's really not a lot to learn vs. older battery technologies.

You have always needed a charger that knew the number of cells.
You always needed to pay attention to how they are charging.

The only thing that is "new" is that overcharging is more dangerous (but unlikely with a good charger)
And you should buy the cells in pre-made packs with protection circuitry, no more buying bare cells.

Greg
 
JimmyB

JimmyB

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Greg, I use model aero standard, these are packs, but without onboard protection, as this is provided by the smart charger.
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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Not to belabor the point, but to hope for understanding (and safety of a fellow hobbiest), please note what Phil stated in post #26.

There are several points there, but one I think you may have missed, is that the protection circuitry in your charger does nothing to protect the pack while running around your layout (or just sitting).

Each item has a function, and while some of the functions should overlap, the charger protection, and even a fuse on the battery output does not do everything a protection board does in the pack.

Greg
 
JimmyB

JimmyB

Semi-Retired; more time for trains.
23 Feb 2018
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Not to belabor the point, but to hope for understanding (and safety of a fellow hobbiest), please note what Phil stated in post #26.

There are several points there, but one I think you may have missed, is that the protection circuitry in your charger does nothing to protect the pack while running around your layout (or just sitting).

Each item has a function, and while some of the functions should overlap, the charger protection, and even a fuse on the battery output does not do everything a protection board does in the pack.

Greg
Greg, I fully understand what Phil is saying about "on-board" protection, what I am say is I have bought a reputable battery pack from a reputable manufacture, that is used throughout the aero modelling world. I appreciate that some years ago Lithium batteries were an issue, so much so that they were not allowed on some aircraft by both the FAA and EASA, however Lithium is considered a lot more safer now, and provided that they are handled correctly should be safe.
Also having read Phil's link I am not sure that his protection can be fitted to my commercial product.
If Jon is uncomfortable with LiPo, then that is his call, each to his own.
 
M

Michael

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26 Jan 2010
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I with Rik on this. I have been using Lithium cells in my locos for over 5 years. I use them in 13 railway items, 10 of which use the 18650 Li-Ion cells in combinations of 1, 2 and 4 cells.

I can't comment on Li-Po cells or battery packs as I haven't used them but during my research into lithium cells, I rejected these as I felt that in particular, battery packs, protection circuits and chargers designed for model aircraft (high discharge over a short time, quick charging times) where totally unsuitable for the Garden Railway.

I buy my 18650 Li-ion cells (used everywhere including laptops, vapors, power tools, electric bikes and even Tesla cars) from a specialised supplier Ecolux (typo corrected), I think Rik does likewise) and thorougly test them before use. If you monitor the voltage over a number of charge/discharge cycles you quickly get an understanding of how they work.

Here's a 4 cell battery pack similar to one that has been in my Accucraft Lew for 5½ years. It fits in the boiler and the balancing/charger connector is available through the smoke box at the front. Note the mandatory protection board.

battery.jpg


Believe me, I wouldn't put this in a £1,500 retail loco if I thought there was any risk of it bursting into flames!

Michael
 
Last edited:
ge_rik

ge_rik

British narrow gauge (esp. Southwold and W&LLR)
24 Oct 2009
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www.riksrailway.blogspot.com
I'm more than happy to make my own packs with 18650 and 14500 li ion cells with protection boards and have been doing so now for over five years. The advantage to my mind is that I can tailor the packs to fit the available space. For example, in my Peckett loco two 18650 cells fitted into the cab either side of the firebox and another in the roof wired in series.
IMG_8523.JPG


In my Simplex, I squeezed one 14500 cell under the chassis at the front and another at the rear of the chassis and then wired them in parallel.

IMG_9567.JPG


Making my own packs gives me flexibility where space is tight.

Rik
PS I get my cells from Ecolux as he guarantees the quality and legitimacy of the cells and will also attach solder tags.