2 Steam Trams with Deltang Radio Control, My Loco Sound cards and LiPo Batteries.

PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
24,961
1,077
Tamworth, Staffs.
Sounds like, having done the first one, you are a little more confident for this one? - It does get easier. :)
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
16,337
1,071
71
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
Sounds like, having done the first one, you are a little more confident for this one? - It does get easier. :)
Absolutely just breezed through it and all worked first time except 2 changes across black and white colour wires to sound functions. Swooped the wires over and all was perfect. I should have used differing colours for those two, but I did nipot want to duplicate any of the colours that were on the Rx as supplied. But then it is all now fresh in my mind.....2 years down the line?
 
F

Fred Mills

Registered
27 Mar 2017
1,888
240
77
Ottawa/Nepean, Ontario Canada
Just a small comment on Lithium batteries...
The guys here use them all the time BUT...they do not "Build" their own. They do not want any risks, and so take no chances. They order them from China, at a saving of much "Moola" and make sure they order the appropriate charger for the battery they order.
Most problems with these batteries are when the batteries don't have the proper sensors included, and the wrong charger is used.
I'm in the midst of replacing my dear old gel cells with new Lithium batteries, in two of my Bachmann Anniversary 10 wheelers, and an Aristo Gas Electric rail car. I won't take any chances....it may save a few day's pay to go on the cheap, but to do it properly, and safely could save one hell of a lot more if you goof up. I bought the charger too, to suit the batteries.
Yes you can charge them in a tin box, and fart around, but I'm more interested in a properly fitted locomotive that will give me many, many hours of safe enjoyment.
I do wish you a safe experience, and good luck.
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
16,337
1,071
71
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
Just a small comment on Lithium batteries...
The guys here use them all the time BUT...they do not "Build" their own. They do not want any risks, and so take no chances. They order them from China, at a saving of much "Moola" and make sure they order the appropriate charge for the battery they order.
Most problems with these batteries are when the batteries don't have the proper sensors included, and the wrong charger is used.
I'm in the midst of replacing my dear old gel cells with new Lithium batteries, in two of my Bachmann Anniversary 10 wheelers, and an Aristo Gas Electric rail car. I won't take any chances....it may save a few day's pay to go on the cheap, but to do it properly, and safely could save one hell of a lot more if you goof up. I bought the charger too, to suit the batteries.
Yes you can charge them in a tin box, and fart around, but I'm more interested in a properly fitted locomotive that will give me many, many hours of safe enjoyment.
I do wish you a safe experience, and good luck.
Yes I agree with you about reputable purchasing, I got mine from Micron the firm that supplied all of my Deltang Gear. The charger is also a proper balancing one with all of correct sensor in the circuitr. It was an interesting process to go through making it a simple matter to take batteries out of the loco and for the Tram you see completed is a simple matter of lifting the lid and pulling the Battery out. The plug separates easily being in a sufficient length of cable to facilitate this farting around. As I previously said I am probably over the top on all this, but remember Boeing Dreamliners? I do not want any of this in my Loco so a Tin Box it is.

Challenge now is to make the battery as easily removable in the other Steam Tram, I do like a challenge.
 
JimmyB

JimmyB

Semi-Retired; more time for trains.
23 Feb 2018
2,543
497
Weston-super-Mare
I bought my first LiPo through Micron, however their stock is limited, so for higher capacity batteries I was bought from Hobby King
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
24,961
1,077
Tamworth, Staffs.
Following on from these comments:
Jon, I did not see a protection board in your list for the job, or notice one in your installation?

The Deltang receivers have a Low Voltage Cutoff monitor (this is 'on' by default, so needs disabling if you are using another battery-chemistry). This will stop the batteries from being over-discharged, as a whole unit, but does not protect the individual cells within the pack.

Protection boards also provide other protection from short-circuit, over-current, and reverse polarity. - Though the charger should detect this last item and cutoff.
 
Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

Retired Oik
27 Oct 2009
26,653
1,063
North West Norfolk
My soldering is attaching the wires to the boards, I can manage in-line splices okay.
Yep, can be tricky.

Needs a fine tip to the soldering iron and I struggle with resin-cored solder. I've used 145 degree solder for some while, and Phil warned me off using acidic liquid flux on PC boards, so there are other liquid flux products that are non acidic - I think mine came from evilbay and is called Topnik RF800 Thermopasty.

There are still some types of cable wires that it's not much good at, and I have to resort to an acidic flux, but not when I'm soldering on to a board.
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
16,337
1,071
71
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
Following on from these comments:
Jon, I did not see a protection board in your list for the job, or notice one in your installation?

The Deltang receivers have a Low Voltage Cutoff monitor (this is 'on' by default, so needs disabling if you are using another battery-chemistry). This will stop the batteries from being over-discharged, as a whole unit, but does not protect the individual cells within the pack.

Protection boards also provide other protection from short-circuit, over-current, and reverse polarity. - Though the charger should detect this last item and cutoff.
Ok interesting, I asked this when purchasing from Micron and I have a variety of bits in the on/off switch module that he provided that has a Fuse and and some sort of resisters. I asked about a protection board and I seam to remember that the switch was ok and any charge protection is provided by the GT Power C607D charger that I have. Are you suggesting that I need another board? As I will not be charging in situ though I could with the switch I assumed all would be in order.
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
16,337
1,071
71
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
Today I finished up the other Tram, well I think I have see above! I managed to get everything in with all the boards in the boiler and the switch assembly mounted to the side. Batteries are the other side and as the body is just a push fit on, removal of batteries and access is all pretty straightforward. Roger was a master builder, though I doubt he would have imagined this option being a possibility. The tech available when he passed was much less state of the art than it is now. I stuffed a piece of wood inside to keep the MLS and Deltang separated just in case of any possible shorts between the components on the boards.

Showing the Tram with everything in place, Steam Trams do look somewhat odd when undressed as it were.
C14E40A9-1952-46B7-BA23-26EC0B8234FA.jpeg

5A51203E-FC2A-4723-A282-577AD7DE756A.jpeg

Backhead shoved on, still awaiting some paint.
4091824A-B809-4F51-80A8-147A17A22E26.jpeg

and all back together, I think some more cosmetics inside to hide things will be in order, but the top slides on nice and tight with an inside lip sitting on the white area which nicely misses the battery.

3D2C3FA3-D3F9-45BD-8455-9964614CC2E6.jpeg

Both Trams again now Deltanged up. Both need a driver, Couplings (on order) and perhaps a repaint to DR standard Black with some DR lettering and numbers.
F459A114-AE85-42AB-A83D-4E186A11A431.jpeg
 
JimmyB

JimmyB

Semi-Retired; more time for trains.
23 Feb 2018
2,543
497
Weston-super-Mare
Ok interesting, I asked this when purchasing from Micron and I have a variety of bits in the on/off switch module that he provided that has a Fuse and and some sort of resisters. I asked about a protection board and I seam to remember that the switch was ok and any charge protection is provided by the GT Power C607D charger that I have. Are you suggesting that I need another board? As I will not be charging in situ though I could with the switch I assumed all would be in order.
Jon, I have the same set-up for LiPo supplied by Micron, and the GT C60T has all the protection built-in as you will be using the specific 3S charging/balancing connection.
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
16,337
1,071
71
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
Jon, I have the same set-up for LiPo supplied by Micron, and the GT C60T has all the protection built-in as you will be using the specific 3S charging/balancing connection.
Thanks Jimmy.
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
24,961
1,077
Tamworth, Staffs.
Jon, I have the same set-up for LiPo supplied by Micron, and the GT C60T has all the protection built-in as you will be using the specific 3S charging/balancing connection.
That is fine for charging, but does not protect the battery / you, if there is a problem in-use..

The fuse/cutout will provide some protection (for the loco) but will not stop a problem within the pack.
 
JimmyB

JimmyB

Semi-Retired; more time for trains.
23 Feb 2018
2,543
497
Weston-super-Mare
That is fine for charging, but does not protect the battery / you, if there is a problem in-use..

The fuse/cutout will provide some protection (for the loco) but will not stop a problem within the pack.
The switch/charging loom has a built in fuse, (if requested) which mine has, I did take every bodies advice on this

Micron Radio Control : Molex 2mm Pitch Connectors
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
24,961
1,077
Tamworth, Staffs.
The switch/charging loom has a built in fuse, (if requested) which mine has, I did take every bodies advice on this

Micron Radio Control : Molex 2mm Pitch Connectors
Yes.. I know.. It say's that..
Please read my second sentence again.

With a 2S pack, you will probably not have a problem, as the Deltang receiver should have Low Voltage Cutoff (LVC) enabled by default, so if one of your cells should drop markedly, the loco should stop, and the LED indicate low-battery. - If a Lipo cell is discharged below a certain level, it is not recoverable.

A protection board is normally built into the battery-pack. - Where one is fitted.
This board is wired across each individual cell, and monitors a number of parameters. If one cell should drop to near the lower voltage limit, the board will 'switch the pack off'. Many will also limit discharge current for the whole pack, but this limit is usually several amps (10 amps is not uncommon), so too much for our use, hence the external fuse.
 
JimmyB

JimmyB

Semi-Retired; more time for trains.
23 Feb 2018
2,543
497
Weston-super-Mare
Yes.. I know.. It say's that..
Please read my second sentence again.

With a 2S pack, you will probably not have a problem, as the Deltang receiver should have Low Voltage Cutoff (LVC) enabled by default, so if one of your cells should drop markedly, the loco should stop, and the LED indicate low-battery. - If a Lipo cell is discharged below a certain level, it is not recoverable.

A protection board is normally built into the battery-pack. - Where one is fitted.
This board is wired across each individual cell, and monitors a number of parameters. If one cell should drop to near the lower voltage limit, the board will 'switch the pack off'. Many will also limit discharge current for the whole pack, but this limit is usually several amps (10 amps is not uncommon), so too much for our use, hence the external fuse.
Phil, yes I understand now re-reading, however with proper balanced charging, using good quality batteries, a single cell discharging will be rare, but more importantly, if it does happen, even with on-board protection, which prevent full discharge of a single cell, the cell is still faulty, rendering the pack faulty.
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
24,961
1,077
Tamworth, Staffs.
The most-common 'power' problem I see, is bad-practice wiring..

Personally, I would always want protection as near-to ('inside' the wrap on the pack) as possible.
NO insulation tape (heatshrink).. ALL joints soldered, or proprietary, crimped connectors..

Lithium batteries (more-so than other chemistry's) can provide an enormous amount or current, and sustain that, for some time.
If wiring becomes detached, cut, or trapped, there is the potential for a short before any fuse/cutout. With protection in/on the pack, the risk is minimised.

Regarding one-cell discharging:
With the best cells in the world, there will be differences, and they will always discharge at different rates. If you get one a little 'weaker' than the others, you can get to a point where the charger will not recharge your pack, as one cell is below the threshold.
Result is you lose a battery-pack, to (what I consider) a risk that should not be there.

I am not trying to 'score-points', just point out what I consider a weakness in the strategy being used.
YMMV.

PhilP.
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
16,337
1,071
71
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
Blub blub blub, so I am now confused. Phil is it that you are saying that the 2 LiPo’s that I have that I have joined together to give me a nominal 7.4 Volts could be eronious in that they have no sort of internal protection? They have been joined together using the 3 wire technique for Balanced Charging as shown by Micron RC.

My Batteries are Nano-Tech 750mAh 35c 1S LiPo 3.7v each.

If I need something what is it and how big and where should it go? Bearing in mind that my Battery Pack has a 3 pin Molex 2mm plug that goes into my Charger, that I have not as yet used. Plus how do I know when the Battery is geting to levels that demand charging, lack of performance or real smoke emitting from the Battery?
 
JimmyB

JimmyB

Semi-Retired; more time for trains.
23 Feb 2018
2,543
497
Weston-super-Mare
Blub blub blub, so I am now confused. Phil is it that you are saying that the 2 LiPo’s that I have that I have joined together to give me a nominal 7.4 Volts could be eronious in that they have no sort of internal protection? They have been joined together using the 3 wire technique for Balanced Charging as shown by Micron RC.

My Batteries are Nano-Tech 750mAh 35c 1S LiPo 3.7v each.

If I need something what is it and how big and where should it go? Bearing in mind that my Battery Pack has a 3 pin Molex 2mm plug that goes into my Charger, that I have not as yet used. Plus how do I know when the Battery is geting to levels that demand charging, lack of performance or real smoke emitting from the Battery?
You can check the battery power level by pressing and holding the bind button (sound switched off) for 5 seconds, the Rx LED will flash the volt in whole then decimal value, details are on the deltang site.
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
24,961
1,077
Tamworth, Staffs.
Blub blub blub, so I am now confused. Phil is it that you are saying that the 2 LiPo’s that I have that I have joined together to give me a nominal 7.4 Volts could be eronious in that they have no sort of internal protection? They have been joined together using the 3 wire technique for Balanced Charging as shown by Micron RC.

My Batteries are Nano-Tech 750mAh 35c 1S LiPo 3.7v each.

If I need something what is it and how big and where should it go? Bearing in mind that my Battery Pack has a 3 pin Molex 2mm plug that goes into my Charger, that I have not as yet used. Plus how do I know when the Battery is geting to levels that demand charging, lack of performance or real smoke emitting from the Battery?
Panic-not Jon..

By Default, there is a feature in your Deltang receiver called Low Voltage Cutoff (known as LVC, for short).. This 'looks' at the battery voltage and, assumes from the value, how many Lithium-cells are present (even if you are not using Lithium batteries!).
It will then monitor the voltage, and if it should go below the threshold set for 'however-many' cells it thinks there are, it will shop the loco, and flash the LED to tell you. - If you take-heed of this, and recharge the batteries, all will be well.

Aside:
LVC catches out those who do not disable it / have it disabled, who use a PP3 9volt battery. these are just above one of the thresholds, so do not 'last very long', as the receiver shuts-down after a very short time!
This is if NOT using Lithium batteries.

Here is a rather scabby set of 18650 cells (3S) with a board on..

DSC02248.JPG


2S boards, are smaller (obviously):

1582211270254.png


You might find this information useful?:


PhilP.
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

Registered
8 Mar 2014
3,464
367
San Diego
www.elmassian.com
Have to agree with Phil, especially since you purchased high charge/discharge rate cells.

Yes, the are only rated for 3/4 of an amp, BUT you can charge them at 35C, i.e. over 26 amps.... so that also means the batteries can also sustain a huge DISCHARGE rate (further reinforced by the very heavy wires on the cells)

So discharge protection and protection from getting "unbalanced" is even more important.

In general most installers for model trains try to avoid the high charge/discharge cells for these reasons, besides the fact you don't need it. I understand you probably bought these cells based on size, but just trying to help explain why the protection board is important.

Greg