Traction
- Thread starter JimmyB
- Start date
Train burnout occurs when the train is using multiple locomotives. Usually there are only people in one locomotive and the other locomotives are controlled by remote control. So the train stops and one locomotive doesn't get the word to stop so it continues to run only the rest of the train which is stopped holds it in place and the wheels just spin away wearing the track down under the wheels.Yep, some people worry about gearbox strain, but if the wheels cans till slip, then you haven't reached that point. In any case, more damage is done to a gearbox through stop / start (including dodgy track continuity) than overloading.
Personally, I'd only start to worry about the wear on the axle bearings, and you're going to have to run trains in extreme 'Duffy' mode to get to that point.
If your track starts to look like this, then it's time to start worrying
View attachment 243837
Once a divot is made in the track, the surface area of the wheel-track contact goes up and makes the whole situation even worse
Jimmy
I have always had to find ways to overcome my rather extreme gradients on my layout (max 1:10).
My first port of call, besides multi-heading and the later motorising of freight cars, was to add weight.
Steam locos, especially tender ones, always posed the most awkward scenario for adding weight.
I tended to look at the make of the loco...LGB gearboxes are 'mainly' more robust than those in Bachmann steam locos (except for their later 1:20.3 scale jobbies)).
So I investigated a little like Korm has done.
I constructed (actually using just a plank of decking with rail and a pile of bricks) a variable incline which I could then test the locos towing a few cars.
When the incline made the loco spin its wheels I added a some weight by draping a small plastic bag of lead (or similar) shot over the loco and then tested to see what incline would again induce the slipping.
I backed off adding more to the Bachmann Annies (4-6-0) after about 3/4 kilo and went up to a full kilo on LGB moguls (2-6-0).
Then came the task of fitting the weight into the loco...but although yours is an Otto (and I am not familiar with it as I do US outline), there are always nooks and crannies where a few pieces of shot can be pushed. Lead sheeting ( building flashing) can be cut into all types of shapes as well.
Do wear rubber gloves while handling any real lead materials.
Although the added weight did improve the traction for my locos, the 1:10 gradient did still cause the single locos problems when hauling even a fairly short train up the gradient..... that is why I began to multi head (or slot in helper locos into the freight consist) and then to go on to 'invisibly' add motors to both some freight cars and some passenger stock.
I have always had to find ways to overcome my rather extreme gradients on my layout (max 1:10).
My first port of call, besides multi-heading and the later motorising of freight cars, was to add weight.
Steam locos, especially tender ones, always posed the most awkward scenario for adding weight.
I tended to look at the make of the loco...LGB gearboxes are 'mainly' more robust than those in Bachmann steam locos (except for their later 1:20.3 scale jobbies)).
So I investigated a little like Korm has done.
I constructed (actually using just a plank of decking with rail and a pile of bricks) a variable incline which I could then test the locos towing a few cars.
When the incline made the loco spin its wheels I added a some weight by draping a small plastic bag of lead (or similar) shot over the loco and then tested to see what incline would again induce the slipping.
I backed off adding more to the Bachmann Annies (4-6-0) after about 3/4 kilo and went up to a full kilo on LGB moguls (2-6-0).
Then came the task of fitting the weight into the loco...but although yours is an Otto (and I am not familiar with it as I do US outline), there are always nooks and crannies where a few pieces of shot can be pushed. Lead sheeting ( building flashing) can be cut into all types of shapes as well.
Do wear rubber gloves while handling any real lead materials.
Although the added weight did improve the traction for my locos, the 1:10 gradient did still cause the single locos problems when hauling even a fairly short train up the gradient..... that is why I began to multi head (or slot in helper locos into the freight consist) and then to go on to 'invisibly' add motors to both some freight cars and some passenger stock.
Mike, many thanks, my maximum gradient is about 1:25, and with two carriages the Otto would cope quite well, Saturday was the first time I had any issues (wet track and three carriages), and adding weight was to me an obvious solution. Like you I added shot in a "snap bag", and found the 0.4 kg was quite good, little (if any slip) pulling the carriages, but would slip if forward motion was prevented.
It would seem this is an acceptable way forward, so I need now to add the weight in an even way in both horizontal planes, and as Korm had already done this "why reinvent the wheel".
It would seem this is an acceptable way forward, so I need now to add the weight in an even way in both horizontal planes, and as Korm had already done this "why reinvent the wheel".
Korm, having stripped down my Otto I am having difficulty in finding space for extra weight, what did you use for weight and where did to put it.
it is not as easy as with a stainz.
the cabin can hold some in the coal bunker. good for glueing in some birdshot.
when you lift the boiler from the chassis, between the leadweight and the motorblock is a space of 8 or 9 mm, best used with some roofing leadsheet. (i had to change the cables from the motorblock to the boiler, to fit two or three 2mm sheets) be carefull, to leave ample holes in the sheets around the contacts of the motorblock!
fore and aft from the leadweight is some room for birdshot too.
that, together with an additional cabinfloor from leadsheet was just enoug.
if that is not enough, you might try to put some lead into the smokestack and the clip-on coalbunker at the rear wall of the cabin.
i forgot to mention, that i put the shot in bags of thin plastic and let white glue run into the spaces between. then let the glue dry in the open bags.
that way, the shot is easier removed, if or when necesary.
the smaller the leadballs, the more weight goes into a given space.
that way, the shot is easier removed, if or when necesary.
the smaller the leadballs, the more weight goes into a given space.
So that's what I've been doing wrong
...............doing wrong ..................... doing wrong ..........................doi....................................................................
Another option is to dry the track! I have an old platerers plastic float that has some old carpet tile on it. Great for drying the rails. Stole the idea when seen at a 16mm event where they have problems with oily and wet rails from live steam puffers. You have not gone that way yet, but you probably will!
Jon, you are right on both counts dry the track and yes I do want live steam, I think this is the ultimate goal.
Just remember that with many live steamers, keeping the speed down is an issue - check out the slomo conversions
that'll get the live steamers chipping in 
I have read the article about the slowmo, it seems to be a very effective device - I assume the slowness has nothing to do with being antipodeanJust remember that with many live steamers, keeping the speed down is an issue - check out the slomo conversions
depends on the type of glue.
i'm using simple white glue for wood. - the advantage: if it needs to be removed for any reason, i just keep it wet for a day or two, till it is soft again.
It's not the plastic - ah, I remember now, do not use PVA glues with lead shot - it reacts, and something expands causing serious damage
Isn't that the beauty of live steam? Not knowing what the heck is going to happen?Just remember that with many live steamers, keeping the speed down is an issue - check out the slomo conversions
I found a program to calculate the parameters on the big railways - and all your recommendations point in the right direction and can be re-applied for GScale. Here's an example, but I skiped all the formulas:
A shunting device with 2 axles / 250 mm wheel diameter / 4.000 kg mass has to move inside a production facility a wagon with 2 axles / 350 mm wheel diameter / 50.000 kg mass.
Questions to be answered
1. Can the shunting device move the wagon w/o slippage on dry track?
2. How many axles have to be driven to avoid slippage?
3. What is the max. acceleration w/o wheel slip?
Taken into account the specific train resistance and the friction steel/steel of 0,63 in dry state the results are
all 4 axles driven -> 0,165 m/sec² max. acceleration possible
just 2 axles driven -> 0,051 m/sec²
only 1 axle driven -> impossible to move / pull the wagon - just wheel slip
So what counts at the end is
> dry track & dry wheels for high friction coefficient
> as many driven axles as possible
> as much weight on the loco as possible
> reduce the train resistance (ball bearings, wide curves etc.)
Modern engines with just 82 tons weight try to avoid wheelslip to transfer a maximum of traction force. Sometimes this does not work properly...
The driver releases all brakes and rolls downhill at 2:55, finally the train starts moving forward at 05:30!
Andreas
A shunting device with 2 axles / 250 mm wheel diameter / 4.000 kg mass has to move inside a production facility a wagon with 2 axles / 350 mm wheel diameter / 50.000 kg mass.
Questions to be answered
1. Can the shunting device move the wagon w/o slippage on dry track?
2. How many axles have to be driven to avoid slippage?
3. What is the max. acceleration w/o wheel slip?
Taken into account the specific train resistance and the friction steel/steel of 0,63 in dry state the results are
all 4 axles driven -> 0,165 m/sec² max. acceleration possible
just 2 axles driven -> 0,051 m/sec²
only 1 axle driven -> impossible to move / pull the wagon - just wheel slip
So what counts at the end is
> dry track & dry wheels for high friction coefficient
> as many driven axles as possible
> as much weight on the loco as possible
> reduce the train resistance (ball bearings, wide curves etc.)
Modern engines with just 82 tons weight try to avoid wheelslip to transfer a maximum of traction force. Sometimes this does not work properly...
The driver releases all brakes and rolls downhill at 2:55, finally the train starts moving forward at 05:30!
Andreas
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Andreas interesting Vid. Just I think it was 17 Bogie Wagons, did it get moving again because a Banking Loco was attached to the rear? Looks like the Brenner needs a few Kriegslocs to get traffic moving with efficiency, or better stil some Jumbo class 44's!