Madman
Registered
Good point Sean. The answer is no.
To Live Steam or Not to Live Steam
- Thread starter Madman
- Start date
Good point Sean. The answer is no.
Sean.
Hmmmm
maxi-model
UK/US/ROW steam narrow gauge railways 1:1
I run on 45 mm gauged LGB type track, both UK/Colonial 16 mm scale and US outline (both rodded and geared)1:20.3 scale locos. All my locos are butane gas fired , poker type burner. I have both Roundhouse and Accucraft makes. Some gas fired locos use a "ceramic" burner, usually larger ones. Mixed reviews of that type.
First - Join a club or association that runs live steam and try to get your hands on one to run before you buy. Buy what floats your boat, but be aware of any caveats that may apply to any chosen loco and its design. Start simple and small, if you can. Avoid "slip ecentric" type drives, low cost but a pita if you are going RC. Buy from a reputable source who will provide advice and back up. Live steamer as you will be aware is a big outlay.
Roundhouse are the most reliable and have the best back up and long term spares support. Accucraft have, through their various divisions (US, D, UK) the widest variety of subject matter and scales for running on 45 mm gauged track. Theirs are mostly good well detailed accurate scale models, however, they can have issues due to manufacturing QC issues (sortable) and spares support. Roundhouse do their own RC fitting, try to get a later one fitted with the compact Fosworks TX options or get it retro fitted. Accucraft RC installs tend to be by dealers and of variable quality and TX type. If buying 2nd hand check the receiver battery condition.
Roundhouse/Accucraft 16 mm scale locos, i.e. mostly British/Colonial subject matter, are gauge adjustable 32/45 mm. There are some exceptions, usually "outside frame" prototype designs, that are built fixed gauge from the factory. Accucraft's, and others, 1:20.3 scale locos as they are usually models of 3ft gauged prototypes are fixed at 45 gauge. Again there is are odd exceptions, so check before you buy.
While having a raised "steam up" area is desirable it is not essential. 30" above ground should be sufficient if you do. Use wood sleepered track or a wood board with grooves gauged for your loco, you can melt plastic sleepers under a stationary loco left unattended with the burner turned up full, don't ask me how I know. If you have a smaller loco, say a non tender 6 coupled or small geared, then steaming on a separate raised area is manageable. Once you are lit up and the safety valve is lifting pick up firmly by the buffer beams an place on the track. Roundhouse provide handy gloves for that. Been there done that.
Controlling a loco yourself is the best fun, especially if you have gradients on a line. If you just want to sit back and watch the train go around get a geared loco like a Shay or Climax type. Geared locos just chug around, there is a lot of inertia in their mechanisms to stop them running away, unlike a conventional rodded loco.
Yes, depending how you feel, it can seem a bit of a faff prepping and getting it all up to steam but once you are running, especially on a cold or humid day, the sound of that chuff and the plume of steam coming from the loco's chimney can't be beat. Running times between refils are variable dependng on your skills and loco design. Usually threy are designed to run out of gas (before water) after around 20 - 30 mins. Some locos are designed to be "fill while run" from a water bottle, extending "continuous" run time. Please excuse my usual magnum opus, hope it provides encouragement. Max
P.S. Other major makes like Regner or Bowande I have no experience of but I they offer some interesting options and are long established makes. There are some very fine "artisan" made products out there but they tend to be at the top end of the market, with some being coal fired (Accucraft have offered coal fired too). Whole different ball game when you get into coal fired at these smaller scales. Aspire to it but try not to start there, unless you are very committed and with a very healthy bank balance.
Steaming in the winter snow
First - Join a club or association that runs live steam and try to get your hands on one to run before you buy. Buy what floats your boat, but be aware of any caveats that may apply to any chosen loco and its design. Start simple and small, if you can. Avoid "slip ecentric" type drives, low cost but a pita if you are going RC. Buy from a reputable source who will provide advice and back up. Live steamer as you will be aware is a big outlay.
Roundhouse are the most reliable and have the best back up and long term spares support. Accucraft have, through their various divisions (US, D, UK) the widest variety of subject matter and scales for running on 45 mm gauged track. Theirs are mostly good well detailed accurate scale models, however, they can have issues due to manufacturing QC issues (sortable) and spares support. Roundhouse do their own RC fitting, try to get a later one fitted with the compact Fosworks TX options or get it retro fitted. Accucraft RC installs tend to be by dealers and of variable quality and TX type. If buying 2nd hand check the receiver battery condition.
Roundhouse/Accucraft 16 mm scale locos, i.e. mostly British/Colonial subject matter, are gauge adjustable 32/45 mm. There are some exceptions, usually "outside frame" prototype designs, that are built fixed gauge from the factory. Accucraft's, and others, 1:20.3 scale locos as they are usually models of 3ft gauged prototypes are fixed at 45 gauge. Again there is are odd exceptions, so check before you buy.
While having a raised "steam up" area is desirable it is not essential. 30" above ground should be sufficient if you do. Use wood sleepered track or a wood board with grooves gauged for your loco, you can melt plastic sleepers under a stationary loco left unattended with the burner turned up full, don't ask me how I know. If you have a smaller loco, say a non tender 6 coupled or small geared, then steaming on a separate raised area is manageable. Once you are lit up and the safety valve is lifting pick up firmly by the buffer beams an place on the track. Roundhouse provide handy gloves for that. Been there done that.
Controlling a loco yourself is the best fun, especially if you have gradients on a line. If you just want to sit back and watch the train go around get a geared loco like a Shay or Climax type. Geared locos just chug around, there is a lot of inertia in their mechanisms to stop them running away, unlike a conventional rodded loco.
Yes, depending how you feel, it can seem a bit of a faff prepping and getting it all up to steam but once you are running, especially on a cold or humid day, the sound of that chuff and the plume of steam coming from the loco's chimney can't be beat. Running times between refils are variable dependng on your skills and loco design. Usually threy are designed to run out of gas (before water) after around 20 - 30 mins. Some locos are designed to be "fill while run" from a water bottle, extending "continuous" run time. Please excuse my usual magnum opus, hope it provides encouragement. Max
P.S. Other major makes like Regner or Bowande I have no experience of but I they offer some interesting options and are long established makes. There are some very fine "artisan" made products out there but they tend to be at the top end of the market, with some being coal fired (Accucraft have offered coal fired too). Whole different ball game when you get into coal fired at these smaller scales. Aspire to it but try not to start there, unless you are very committed and with a very healthy bank balance.
Steaming in the winter snow
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I have had Regner, Peter Angus, Merlin, Mamof and Roundhouse live steam. In fact the only ones I do not still have are my 4 Merlins. Roundhouse for me win every time, if you go for one get the RC with Fosworks Transmitter, so much easier to drive than the clunky Car/Boat/Plane types. Roundhouse these days offer it as an option, my 3 Roundhouse have been after purchased converted to Fosworks Tx. They also have all been fitted with SliMo’s that make them as docile as my 4 geared locomotives.
railwayman198
Registered
Just to add that some steamers scale better than others with LGB rolling stock. The 'generic' locos from both Roundhouse and Accucraft are very chunky. Their models of small prototypes such as W.D. Baldwins and Alcos are more compact and sit better with the LGB loading gauge. Regner geared locos are very bulky and look closer to 7/8ths scale. The pic of my Roundhouse Katie alongside the WD Alco shows the difference. I run all kinds, but it's another consideration.
Good advice, but we've used plastic Peco track at Brambleton for many years with no problems. There are special bays for coal firing, but rthats a different kettle of steam
Madman
Registered
So just a thought. It's my son who has bugged me over the years to get a live steamer. Maybe he should do the honors and get down on hands and knees.....
Jasper
Hey, I'm only being creative here!
As for Regner: some of their models are indeed meant as 7/8" scale, as are their Lorry kits.
I have their Emma which fits beautifully with my G Scale stuff. I went to Germany to pick it up at their factory, and got an extensive lesson in driving and handling it. My knowledge of the German language was stretched to the limit! Afterwards, any question from me was quickly answered by e-mail. (They do understand English, by the way.)
It runs beautifully, it's surprisingly strong and at the same time easily manageable. It has the water top-up feature. I had them install a whistle, which is powered by steam from the kettle and activated from the RC. If you've raised enough steam, the whistle will be loud enough to scare your neighbours.
Keep in mind that a Regner loco may seem quirky if you're used to Roundhouse or Accucraft, because these people tend to find their own solutions. So in that case you'd have a bit of a learning curve.
Here it is, and you can see that even an R0 curve (422 mm) is no problem. It's the curve on the near right hand side.
I have their Emma which fits beautifully with my G Scale stuff. I went to Germany to pick it up at their factory, and got an extensive lesson in driving and handling it. My knowledge of the German language was stretched to the limit! Afterwards, any question from me was quickly answered by e-mail. (They do understand English, by the way.)
It runs beautifully, it's surprisingly strong and at the same time easily manageable. It has the water top-up feature. I had them install a whistle, which is powered by steam from the kettle and activated from the RC. If you've raised enough steam, the whistle will be loud enough to scare your neighbours.
Keep in mind that a Regner loco may seem quirky if you're used to Roundhouse or Accucraft, because these people tend to find their own solutions. So in that case you'd have a bit of a learning curve.
Here it is, and you can see that even an R0 curve (422 mm) is no problem. It's the curve on the near right hand side.
stevedenver
Registered
I think part of the love is mindset. Patience, or none.
I have a roundhouse srrl, and lgb/aster frank s. Both butane.
My layout has about 2% grades, r3. Portions at waist high, others at ground level.
My thoughts:
Live steam:
Ritual/Methodical, prep time, not spontaneous. At least 20 minutes either side of running to prep, lube, tighten stuff, fill, drain, clean, etc.
Alive, independent power, exhaust, needs constant attention and careful control (when grades are involved).
R/c is important with grades.
Imho, grades are a pita for carefree running.
Electric:
Spontaneous, instant gratification, simple to operate, impervious to grades, pretty much. Run ‘em five minutes or hours.
I really enjoy my steamers, but nowhere as frequently as my electrics. Simply, they require purposeful attention.
Grades require full throttle to ascend, with or without consist. Downhill, potentially super sonic if not controlled.
I think live steam is a lot of fun. Roundhouse is worth every penny. Smooth, durable, easy to fire and run.
Aster is great too.
Id like a live steam shay. One that doesnt have q/c, steaming and/or mechanical issues.
I have a roundhouse srrl, and lgb/aster frank s. Both butane.
My layout has about 2% grades, r3. Portions at waist high, others at ground level.
My thoughts:
Live steam:
Ritual/Methodical, prep time, not spontaneous. At least 20 minutes either side of running to prep, lube, tighten stuff, fill, drain, clean, etc.
Alive, independent power, exhaust, needs constant attention and careful control (when grades are involved).
R/c is important with grades.
Imho, grades are a pita for carefree running.
Electric:
Spontaneous, instant gratification, simple to operate, impervious to grades, pretty much. Run ‘em five minutes or hours.
I really enjoy my steamers, but nowhere as frequently as my electrics. Simply, they require purposeful attention.
Grades require full throttle to ascend, with or without consist. Downhill, potentially super sonic if not controlled.
I think live steam is a lot of fun. Roundhouse is worth every penny. Smooth, durable, easy to fire and run.
Aster is great too.
Id like a live steam shay. One that doesnt have q/c, steaming and/or mechanical issues.
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True, but, well, live steam is live steam!
Chris Vernell
45.29 N, 75.75 W
railwayman198
Registered
I have a Vincent and my good friend has a Challoner. Non-geared Regners do not seem very common in the UK. A few years ago someone brought an Emma to one of my open days; and it was indeed a fine loco. A bit more recently a friend brought this beast of an engine to test on my line. Originally built from a Regner kit, with every conceivable refinement: whistle, draincocks, lights etc - all r/c.
David Price
Registered
Chris Vernell already mentioned an importer in the US for Roundhouse.
I should forget the Mamod as it is generally agreed that it takes a lot of time, effort and cash to make them run properly and even then they are second rate.
I also mentioned this elsewhere:
Okay so not in a normal garden scale this is Spur 1 which is 1:32 running on 45mm track. It is live steam however and a snip at € 4300 / £ 3765 / $ 5010 but before you whip out the credit card they are on holiday until Friday. Just look at it, Oooooo
(1HPC12) ASTER Spur 1 Dampflok Gt2x4/4 Bayern, Echtdampf Live Steam - Modelleisenbahn Ankauf & Verkauf | Bimmelbahn24
Das Spur 1 Modell einer Dampflok Gt2x4/4 MALLET Bayern, befindet sich in gutem Zustand und wird in starker Luftpolsterung und stabiler Kartonage geliefert. SPIRITUS ! ECHTDAMPF, LIVE STEAM ! Wurde von unserem externen Echtdampfspezialisten erfolgreich geprüft. Unsere Bilder sprechen für sich...www.bimmelbahn24.de
One factor you should consider when buying any large scale locomotive including live steam is what minimum radius curves do you want/need to run on?
Not sure of the minimum radius curves this Mallet need but if it is like the Accucraft NA locomotives it will need a larger radius than many of the LGB products. Bachmann's Fn3 (1:20.3) Mallet is not a true Mallet - in that its rear drive unit also pivots allowing it to get round tighter curves than it should.
And as for live steam - go Roundhouse for your first loco - Jason Kovak at the Train Department is as helpful as Roundhouse are to there customers.
Accucraft for detail - if you are prepared to sometimes get an engine that needs fettling (look for my 7/8"Decauville posts on this forum).
And run away from Mamod - as they tend to run away.............
David Price
Registered
Jason Kovak at The Train Department in the handles Roundhouse (as well as Accucraft, Aster, Bownande, etc.) - no connection other than a satisfied customer.
And if you buy Roundhouse from outside the UK the VAT is removed before it enters your country's customs regime (+10% GST for Australia).
David Price
Registered
Very nice - how did it handle your curves and points?
Well yes the original Mamods do, but in later years there was at least one possibly more geared ones that would be tamable.
railwayman198
Registered
We only gave it a short test run before it got dark. It was ok on the R5 curves and points that I have on most of my line. We didn't try it on the R3 loops at either end.
maxi-model
UK/US/ROW steam narrow gauge railways 1:1
A lot of conjecture about minimum radius on curves. First advise I was given by the shop I bought my garden railway kit from, "nothing below 4ft radius". No matter what you are running. In reality you can go below that but it will limit the types of locos and stock you can run. If you do not want to limit your choice then go as wide as you can.
Sure, a lot of mainstream track powered locos and stock will incorporate various tricks and compromises to get their product around the smallest radius they can. You want to ensure maximum sales. Take a look at Bachmann's K-27 sometime and the clever sideplay built into its 8 coupled design and valvegear. You can get that around an R3 at a pinch, depending what you are pulling. Try that with an Accucraft live steam (or electric) K-27 & K-28. Not going to happen. And never mind what will be happening on the couplings with a rake of full length J&S cars behind them, all swinging way out at the ends.
When you get to big 6 & 8 coupled metal built, mostly live steam, locos these compromises are rarely engineered in. They would mess up the vital working valvegear for starters (where a maker has an electric power option of a design it will use all the same tooling). I would say go above the 4ft rule, like 6ft. And pay particular attention on track formations around junctions, as stock will be pulled this way and that. Max
Sure, a lot of mainstream track powered locos and stock will incorporate various tricks and compromises to get their product around the smallest radius they can. You want to ensure maximum sales. Take a look at Bachmann's K-27 sometime and the clever sideplay built into its 8 coupled design and valvegear. You can get that around an R3 at a pinch, depending what you are pulling. Try that with an Accucraft live steam (or electric) K-27 & K-28. Not going to happen. And never mind what will be happening on the couplings with a rake of full length J&S cars behind them, all swinging way out at the ends.
When you get to big 6 & 8 coupled metal built, mostly live steam, locos these compromises are rarely engineered in. They would mess up the vital working valvegear for starters (where a maker has an electric power option of a design it will use all the same tooling). I would say go above the 4ft rule, like 6ft. And pay particular attention on track formations around junctions, as stock will be pulled this way and that. Max