Superelevation

beavercreek said:
Interesting point there Rhino.

Once, when I thought that all was well with my track as I was having no derailments..... but then there had been a few torrential storms. a friend brought over his lovely electric 'T' boiler Accy 2 cyl shay. All was well until it was negotiating a certain curve (10ft radius). Everything else (non-Accucraft) had gone around OK but it was only this particular curve that upset my friend's shay with its finescale wheels.
So out came the spirit level and the track level gizmo and low and behold the little bit of 'superelevation' that I had put in that particular place for my Accy kit, had been swept away by the rain (even after 6 years of being okay).

That 'problem area now has stone under the ballast and the ballast has been well and truly glued with exterior waterproof PVA (a system that I have rolled out (or should it be poured/sprayed) around most of the layout. 3 years on since the first glue deployment and it is still as hard as rock (I used particularly small gauge ballast as that stays glued the best.... and also looks good too)..

Moral is, ballast moves and keeping 'special' levels can be difficult as they are prone to be being 'altered' by weather, footfall, animals etc etc. So glue or cement is a good idea to keep it in place if you have to have one
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There is another thing that goes along with this - slightly off topic, but relevant to track and wheel standards. On stock with finer scale wheels, it is important to keep the axles well lubricated as the side play of the axle in the bogie plays an important role in preventing derailment - don't ask me why on this one, but I have discovered that it does.
 
The drawing shows the inner rail at "Plumb" or vertical. I have not seen that done on real track. It appears to me that both rails are at an angle with a vertical plane.
 
beavercreek said:
Interesting point there Rhino.

Once, when I thought that all was well with my track as I was having no derailments..... but then there had been a few torrential storms. a friend brought over his lovely electric 'T' boiler Accy 2 cyl shay. All was well until it was negotiating a certain curve (10ft radius). Everything else (non-Accucraft) had gone around OK but it was only this particular curve that upset my friend's shay with its finescale wheels.
So out came the spirit level and the track level gizmo and low and behold the little bit of 'superelevation' that I had put in that particular place for my Accy kit, had been swept away by the rain (even after 6 years of being okay).

That 'problem area now has stone under the ballast and the ballast has been well and truly glued with exterior waterproof PVA (a system that I have rolled out (or should it be poured/sprayed) around most of the layout. 3 years on since the first glue deployment and it is still as hard as rock (I used particularly small gauge ballast as that stays glued the best.... and also looks good too)..

Moral is, ballast moves and keeping 'special' levels can be difficult as they are prone to be being 'altered' by weather, footfall, animals etc etc. So glue or cement is a good idea to keep it in place if you have to have one
Click to expand...
Beever. Where did you get and what size Ballast you using please? Andy Rush got some stuff from somewhere around Tilbury/Southend Area that was used on Roofing Felt. Super Stuff and the PVA holds it in place so well. But I Have used all the bigger stuff that was left when he passed away and could do with more to freshen up gaps. Still have plenty of the smaller stuff but we only used that in Yards and Sidings. What you have been using may be just what I am looking for?
JonD
 
Madman said:
The drawing shows the inner rail at "Plumb" or vertical. I have not seen that done on real track. It appears to me that both rails are at an angle with a vertical plane.
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It might be an exaggeration - there may be a slight cant in the rail that is not normally visible ;)

There's a lot of technology in modern track laying in the 1:1 world - like it being stretched to the same expansion as 83 degrees (in the UK) etc etc :smoke::smoke:
 
dunnyrail said:
Beever. Where did you get and what size Ballast you using please? Andy Rush got some stuff from somewhere around Tilbury/Southend Area that was used on Roofing Felt. Super Stuff and the PVA holds it in place so well. But I Have used all the bigger stuff that was left when he passed away and could do with more to freshen up gaps. Still have plenty of the smaller stuff but we only used that in Yards and Sidings. What you have been using may be just what I am looking for?
JonD
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Jon, I mainly use two sorts of ballast. 1-3mm crushed granite/slate mix for most of the mainline, local line and the quarry. and 2-4mm mainly pinkish crushed granite mix for the Beaver Creek station yard area. I get the grey stuff from a landscaping yard near Ipswich and the pink stuff from an independent garden centre near Colchester.


Pink 2-4mm:

beaver yards southern end aerial view.jpg

pink ballast beaver creek yards 2.jpg

beaver creek detail.jpg

Grey 1-3mm:

no work today 1.jpg

quarry aerial view.jpg

late sun cat finds the spot.jpg

P1010282.jpg
 

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Eeyore.Boater said:
The drawing also shows the rails inclined inwards on the sleepers, not seen that on any model track. I beleive the inclination mirrors the wheel profile and allows the wheel to roll on the centre of the railhead.
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Google Cliff Barker. He is the only manufacturer world wide, as far as I am aware, who does incline the rails.

A common degree of coning on wheels and inward lean of rail is 1 in 20, although many railways had different standards, including occasionally nil.
 
Rhinochugger said:
Not necesselery :cool::cool:

If you run entirely LGB stock, then with their deep flanges designed for their small radius curves, superelevation is not a necessity, but can sometimes look good (I'm thinking of one of the famous Thomas the Tank Engine railways on this forum).

However, if you're using locos and stock with a finer (not necessarily fine scale) flange, then sometimes a small degree of superelevation is necessary, particularly on 8 ft diameter curves to stop the locos derailing - doing the railway equivalent of the 'high step off'. Equally, superelevation on a longer sustained curve can sometimes avoid the 'stringing' problem of stock being pulled over.

Once you get up to 12ft diameter, I doubt there's any practical benefit :shake::shake:

So I either pack the ballast, or on a solid base, slip a wedge of some sort under the sleepers
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Although I accept that it is quite unnecessary for the purpose of keeping stock on the track, I always aim to introduce some cant/superelevation (both terms are as far as I am concerned valid), because it adds to the realism, especially when vehicles like coaches and vans lean visibly into the curve. On full scale lines, cant goes hand in glove with transition/easement curves.

In our scales, 12ft diameter (6ft radius) represents a very sharp curve in prototype, far sharper than most running lines would ever be, even in narrow gauge. Work it out if you don't believe me. Also a continuous check/guard(?) rail would be required at this radius.
 
beavercreek said:
Jon, I mainly use two sorts of ballast. 1-3mm crushed granite/slate mix for most of the mainline, local line and the quarry. and 2-4mm mainly pinkish crushed granite mix for the Beaver Creek station yard area. I get the grey stuff from a landscaping yard near Ipswich and the pink stuff from an independent garden centre near Colchester.


Pink 2-4mm:

View attachment 226035

View attachment 226037

View attachment 226034

Grey 1-3mm:

View attachment 226036

View attachment 226039

View attachment 226042

View attachment 226043
Click to expand...



Well, your ballast obviously meets with the superintendent's approval. Look how comfortable he/she is.
 
beavercreek said:
Jon, I mainly use two sorts of ballast. 1-3mm crushed granite/slate mix for most of the mainline, local line and the quarry. and 2-4mm mainly pinkish crushed granite mix for the Beaver Creek station yard area. I get the grey stuff from a landscaping yard near Ipswich and the pink stuff from an independent garden centre near Colchester.


Pink 2-4mm:

View attachment 226035

View attachment 226037

View attachment 226034

Grey 1-3mm:

View attachment 226036

View attachment 226039

View attachment 226042

View attachment 226043
Click to expand...
Think the Grey Crushed Granite stuff 1-3 is what I am after. Any Address for the Landscape Yard please, may be worth a trip to see them I think?
JonD
 
dunnyrail said:
Think the Grey Crushed Granite stuff 1-3 is what I am after. Any Address for the Landscape Yard please, may be worth a trip to see them I think?
JonD
Click to expand...


It goes under the name of B&M Concrete Co
The address is:
B&M Landscape Centre
Back Road
Kirton
Near Ipswich
IP10 0QQ


It costs £4.25 a 25kg bag (1-4mm granite)

here is their brochure
http://www.bmconcrete.co.uk/pricelist/index.html#20
 
One of my sons bought me a book about the Nevada Central last Chrimbo - in it there's a quote that to model that railroad, all you need is a bag of sand and some straight track :D:D:D so no superelevation there :eek::eek:

The carriages were painted a cream colour so that the dust wouldn't show up too badly on them :rock::rock::rock:

Also referred to as the sage brush railroad :nerd::nerd:
 
Not to start a war, but I find it impossible to believe that adding superelevation caused an Accucraft shay to run better.

If this is really true, then you have something else wrong with that locomotive, i.e. the geometry of the suspension cannot be enhanced by adding this extra dimension.

I'm only stating this because someone might read this and assume that adding superelevation would enhance operation, there are mounds of evidence to the contrary.

Greg

Rhinochugger said:
I have a few curves which are superelevated, and they run just fine. You do have to be careful to have just the right amount.

On the WWNR, most of the superelevated curves are in ballast, and as I say, you just need to pack the ballast to get the cant. Only one of them is on the solid sleeper, and there's a small plastic shim at the appropriate place.

The Accy shay was the loco that first moved me toward this aspect of track laying - as it was not always enamoured with LGB R3 curves, but a little bit of superelevation, and she was as reliable as the rest :nod::nod::nod:
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Greg Elmassian said:
Not to start a war, but I find it impossible to believe that adding superelevation caused an Accucraft shay to run better.

If this is really true, then you have something else wrong with that locomotive, i.e. the geometry of the suspension cannot be enhanced by adding this extra dimension.

I'm only stating this because someone might read this and assume that adding superelevation would enhance operation, there are mounds of evidence to the contrary.

Greg
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It was just a question of keeping it on the track around an LGB R3 which is a smidgen under 8ft diameter.

Whatever the theories, it worked :nod::nod:
 
I'd have to see it... I have an open mind, perhaps it had to do with the torque applied to the trucks and that was canting them in a particular direction... I'd have to see it to believe it... but I do believe you experienced it.

I just would have hesitated to offer this... I have seen royal messes with attempts at superelevation, and my biggest gains in reliability were accomplished by enforcing cross level in my layout.

Greg
 
Greg Elmassian said:
I'd have to see it... I have an open mind, perhaps it had to do with the torque applied to the trucks and that was canting them in a particular direction... I'd have to see it to believe it... but I do believe you experienced it.

I just would have hesitated to offer this... I have seen royal messes with attempts at superelevation, and my biggest gains in reliability were accomplished by enforcing cross level in my layout.

Greg
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I take life pretty easy with my railway - I'm happy to try things, and if they don't work, go back or try something else.

As I said earlier, I have a number of sections of superelevation - it works for me OK, but it may not be the thing for others. My aim is to be able to set a train running and sit back for half an hour before I change the points and set one going on the opposite direction. If I can do that OK, then in my eyes, the railway's running OK :smoke::smoke::smoke::smoke::smoke::smoke::smoke:
 
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