Smoke!

[Madman]

I have resigned myself to just two or three smoking locos. And these are mostly for guests. I find that less is more, for me anyway. But as I said earlier, tinker away Trev. If it's smoke you want, it is smoke you shall have, no matter how many tinks you have to er.


Just remembered this little guy. I installed a Heng Long smoke generator in it and the results are very pleasing. http://youtu.be/zSLxQzjBBM8

 

[tramcar trev]

Apart from the fact that it is a diseasel it does give a good effect......
Can I ask a few questions re this unit?1) physical size?2) how is it filled with smoke fluid?3) what voltage does it need?4) can it be controlled by a switch or does it need radio control? and finally exactly what model of heng long smoker is it?
there are several on ebay....

 

[tramcar trev]

Not sure Keith... But I'm going to be like a Terrier with a bone on this....

Well, burying it in the garden and then peeing on the spot isn't going to help much.

In truth, I think we're all keen to see how you get on.

I bought a few parts today, a 50x50x30 diecast box, some fibreglass rovings a length of 8mm brass tube etc, cost me more than I can buy a unit on eBay for 8|8|8|8|8|
As the Boiler is a saddle tank I'll have plenty of space for one of the 6800mAh lipo batteries and this thing...
Progress reports in due course....

 

[Madman]

Apart from the fact that it is a diseasel it does give a good effect......
Can I ask a few questions re this unit?1) physical size?2) how is it filled with smoke fluid?3) what voltage does it need?4) can it be controlled by a switch or does it need radio control? and finally exactly what model of heng long smoker is it?
there are several on ebay....

Without the unit right in front of me I would say that it is less than 2" square. I put smoke fluid down the stack. I blocked off one vent, in the 2090 diesel, and used the remaining vent for my exhaust stack. They run on about 6 volts. It can be controlled via switch or wired to run all the time. I'm not sure about the model number. In fact I really don't know the difference between some of the models. Here is one I just ordered. It has a piston that pulses the smoke out.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/161030378877?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2648

 

[tramcar trev]

Apart from the fact that it is a diseasel it does give a good effect......
Can I ask a few questions re this unit?1) physical size?2) how is it filled with smoke fluid?3) what voltage does it need?4) can it be controlled by a switch or does it need radio control? and finally exactly what model of heng long smoker is it?
there are several on ebay....

Without the unit right in front of me I would say that it is less than 2" square. I put smoke fluid down the stack. I blocked off one vent, in the 2090 diesel, and used the remaining vent for my exhaust stack. They run on about 6 volts. It can be controlled via switch or wired to run all the time. I'm not sure about the model number. In fact I really don't know the difference between some of the models. Here is one I just ordered. It has a piston that pulses the smoke out.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/161030378877?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2648

It is most impressive in smoke output.... Looking at the picture it would appear that a motor revolves a shaft which pushes the piston in and out and the resistors on top can be adjusted to change the speed of the pulses.... I see these advertised as "non proportional" and "proportional" units.... and they obviously don't get too hot.... If I hadn't made up my mind to make my own I'd try one myself.....

 

[tramcar trev]

Experiments so far have been most encouraging.
In the picture you can see the element wrapped around the fiberglass wick, to make smoke this wick has its bottom end sitting in a little pot of smoke fluid. How did I do that? Ahhhh well I wrapped the fiberglass ?string? around 2 outspread fingers then threaded the piece of U shaped wire through the loops then fed the ends of that through the element that I had prepared earlier by winding the Ni-chrome wire around a mandrel.
11 Ohms at 11 volts equals around a 1 Amp drain (you would have all immediately input the data in to your Ohms law calculator on your smart phone ? and come up with a different result)?.
Now that produces enough smoke to fill my workshop in around 15 seconds?. The element is far too long (the top of it glows red and all the smoke is produced from the bottom; but when I get some higher pieces d? resistance say 42ohms a foot, I can make a smaller element like the one above the MkI version.
So encouraged by these results I shall push on, I think given the smoke produced at 1 amp that I will get more than enough at around 500mA plus 80mA for the fan that blows the smoke out of the funnel?.

Pulsing the smoke is the real challenge, to get the ?chuff? effect, I have a 25mm dia axial fan but it doesn't stop quickly enough, I may have to sacrifice Chuff for just clouds of smoke?. Although they did not make as much smoke as some people would like you to believe, the effect was accentuated in narrow Sydney streets?.

 

[Madman]

Ross, you have been sleeping at your desk again. We've been discussing the Heng Long units for awhile now. Go stand in the corner. Don't feel bad, I sometimes don't pay attention even when I'm paying attention.

As for the Proportional and Non-Proportional Heng Long smoke units, what is the difference. Would anyone care to enlighten me?

 

[Madman]

Actually Dan = I was referring to Trevs idea for puffing the smoke. (Use the Heng Long puffer piston NOT the smoker itself).
I know all about the smoker posts as I was involved in checking these smoker units out a quite few months ago with robsmorgan and a couple of others.

The HUNTER type is probably the best but expensive and does get quite hot. There are also a couple of very small centrifugal fans that will operate with the HUNTER. I got them from Germany.
Cannot remember the firms name.

More smoker info where the first discussion took place is on LOCOMOTIVES and TRAMS section of GSC

http://www.gscalecentral.net/tm?smoke-generators&m=61168&high=smoke&mpage=1
which also shows Rob Morgan's set up for his Annie and should answer quite a few questions if read from start to finish..or at least give some ideas.

(Of course...one could always consult Boeing re smoke)

See.... I'm not sleeping!!..

Well...........don't I look foolish OK, I'm over it

 

[tramcar trev]

And I have been researching the Heng Long units and discover that they are not that reliable and most convert them to a 12mm fan in place of the piston.... http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1359475 http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=873723

This looks good if ya want smoke http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=739243

I'll press on....

 

[alec dawe]

Puffs?
How about a little, old fashioned, bellows, operated by an axle mounted cam.
Or am I talking complete rubbish again?

 

[tramcar trev]

Puffs?
How about a little, old fashioned, bellows, operated by an axle mounted cam.
Or am I talking complete rubbish again?

Hmmmm Alec great minds think alike! I'm (as we speak) playing with an old ink cartridge refill syringe that has a sort of loose fitting "piston" with an O ring seal and contemplating some means of pushing it in and out about 5 mm with an eccentric strap off a driven axle but also keeping the fan.... the fact that the piston is loose means that the drive rod does not need any articulation for such a short movement....

 

[gregh]

Just a couple of suggestions Trev (it's easier to suggest than do the work!)

Instead of getting higher resistance wire, try winding about half as many turns again than you have on the wick. Put these extra turns in the fluid. This will give about half as much power in the wick coil as before, and preheat the fluid too.


Instead of a mechanical smoke pulse mechanism, could it be done electronically? It will depend on the thermal lag of the wick/coils. But for slow chuffs, it may be possible to just turn the power on and off.
As a first test, just flick the supply on and off say every second and see if it produces chuffs. Probably need a bit of preheat to start. If that seems OK do it a bit faster. If you try the extra coils I suggest above, try shorting out the extra coils on/off. If it works you could use a 555 timer to do the chuffing.
If this doesn't make sense, I'll sketch out a circuit.

 

[tramcar trev]

Greg, I have a circus to make a led flash using a 555 which I was going to adapt to switch the fan on and off, then the idea of a reed switch and magnet on an axle was suggested and I liked that but the fan takes too long to stop, so then I thought that if I could find a dpst reed switch I could use reverse polarity to stop the fan pronto.... And now I'm stagnating on the idea of pulsing the smoke, I may just run it via the ESC so that I can control the output and assume the "driver" is heavy handed with the blower on the boiler, well it happens.....
Another idea borrowed from a " toy" has a small plastic bottle that is whacked by an arm to provide puffs....
I found some tubular fibreglass insulation around 5mm internal that when stretched over the wick/element assy; makes it both neater and increases smoke output significantly, I guess because it soaks up the smoke fluid too and puts it in intimate contact with the element. it takes a short time to smoke after power is applied so turning the element on and off may not work but I'll give it a go tomorrow, but somehow I think thermal inertia will defeat me there...
BTW the Coal flavoured smoke fluid is a ripper, its U beaut, bluddy amazing and the smell is awesome, had Hyacinth going berserk looking for the fire, I had to assure her I was not building another steam launch.....
I was hoping that higher resistance wire would let me make a smaller element and also let me use less current, even at 500mA there is oodles of smoke...
Also this research has allowed me to discover the tiny 2 pin plugs and sockets that are just right for jumper leads between tram and trailer to supply the power for lights etc... though I could carry another battery under the toastrack trailer too I suspect....

 

[Dtsteam]

Another idea borrowed from a " toy" has a small plastic bottle that is whacked by an arm to provide puffs....

Looking at this, and the postings further back made me think about the bellows in a singing bird mechanism. Its basically a thin diaphragm with an arm on a cam which pushes it down to create a 'puff'. Maybe worth trying something similar...

 

[KeithT]

This has become way too complex for me.
I would rely on setting fire to an oily rag and stuffing it into the smokebox.

 

[tramcar trev]

This has become way too complex for me.
I would rely on setting fire to an oily rag and stuffing it into the smokebox.

Don't worry Keith this has been considered.... But have you noticed that even live steamers don't make much smoke???

 

[Tony Walsham]

Prototype locos make their smoke from the fuel the use.
Most live steamers use meths or gas for fuel so they rarely if ever make any "smoke" at all.

 

[tramcar trev]

Yes, from my own experience even wood fired paddle steamers make very little smoke.... of course there are exceptions, for scenes in "period" Movies as an example, old car tyres were burnt to create smoke, and they are quite an efficient fuel though I suspect the environmentally aware would not greet that news with much enthusiasm... How time slips by, that was 1983....

A further mod to my planned smoke gerberator is now 3 silicone rubber tubes to convey the "smoke" to the cylinders so that it can issue forth from the drain cocks or the piston rod gland with a 3rd supplying "smoke' to wisp from the safety being silicone tubing it would be exceptionally easy to control the flow using Aquarium valves secreted somewhere....
This smoke is interesting though, it dosen't seem to amount to much till it mixes with cool air then it transforms into smoke.

 

[tramcar trev]

[align=left]We have been very busy here, at the now, Lanyon Valley Steam & Electric Tramway working on the kero lights, the new signals and now the smoke gerberator for the steam tram. The People at Valley Heights http://infobluemountains.net.au/locodepot/tram/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnPcduIGdWc have generously provided some interesting drawings of the Sydney Baldwin Steam Tram Motors and Trailers but I now find myself in clash of scales, my trams are all G scale roughly 22.5:1 and if I build the steam tram motor and trailer strictly to scale it would be much smaller, in fact it would be “standard gauge” or Gauge 1 as my 45mm track would be equivalent to 4’81/2”[/align] [align=left]What to do????[/align] [align=left]Well stuff it I’ll maybe have to invoke rule 8…. After all there is a 3’6” gauge Baldwin steam tram at Yarloop…….[/align] [align=left]
Anyway the smoke maker, (appropriate that we talk about this when smoke is to be taxed an extra 12%) the prototype is a raging success having filled my garage with dense smoke in 15 mins…..[/align] [align=left]The only downside is that there is no chuff, to get chuff I really need some sort of bellows, or piston in a cylinder that sucks in then spurts out. I tried stopping and starting the fan but there is too much inertia, just because the fan stops the air flow carries on for a few seconds and when the fan starts again there is a pause until it gets the smoke “blasting” up the outlet….. I’ll just have to be happy with clouds of smoke!!! It looks quite realistic when a breeze blows….[/align] [align=left]
Only tricky bit with this build was the little elements to heat the coal aroma smoke fluid. I tried several designs and after trying simply putting fiberglass tube around an 18 Ohm X 1 watt resistor and noting that it worked well for about 10 mins then burnt out I went back to winding my own using Nichrome wire and the BURNT out 18 ohm resistor as a core… slide 2 thicknesses of the fiberglass insulation onto the resistor, cut a slit in one end and bend the wire from the resistor at 90 Degrees. Then starting at the top and using a little silver crimp (the same ones as used in the work on the overhead) crimp the Nichrome to the lead then carefully wind it along the body of the resistor and checking the resistance after each turn when a few are on until I got the resistance I wanted vs. the voltage I’ll operate this at…. It’s all to do with Ohms Law you know….. These run at around 550mA and 11.5 volts though there is quite a wide operating voltage, though the fan shuts down around 6 volts....[/align] [align=left]A short length of 20mm Sq aluminum tube is put in the case as a reservoir for smoke fluid. The “wick” on the bottom of the element sits in the fluid. I chose a box that is 50mm Sq by 30mm high, there are other sizes available and what the end use is for determines the box size.... One thing I discovered I do not want is the fluid being heated directly by the element, this turns the thing into a miniature deep fryer and boils the smoke fluid which spits and sputters everywhere as well as getting the whole case hot.[/align] [align=left]On the prototype the fan is on the outside, the second effort has the fan inside the box. The fan runs constantly as the brushless motor does not like the pulse width modulated speed control and it also keeps the whole thing cool, the smoke element can have its own voltage control which can be adjusted at leisure, depending on the amount of smoke wanted…..[/align] [align=left]The “outlet pipe” goes into the box as far as it can go. This ensures that when smoke fluid is dripped down the fluid will run into the container and not dribble all over the place it also promotes the airflow to travel around the element then up the outlet taking most of the heat with it…. There is more than enough smoke and 2 small silicone rubber hoses can convey the smoke to the tram cylinders to (hopefully) realistically leak out around the piston rods or cylinder drains….[/align] [align=left]All up but not costing my time this cost me around AU$20 for the 2 units in parts, some bits I already had… It does not get as hot as I thought it would, just barely warm… I’m labelling it a success, I just wish I could have got some “Chuff” though…[/align]
[align=left]The photographs speak 1000’s of words, just a shame the video I took didn’t turn out says it’s a corrupted file…..[/align] [align=left]These are available at the LVS&ET Gift Shop along with 1mm slices of LVET Rail and complete signal systems....[/align]

 

[trammayo]

Impressive Trev. I'd give you 10 out of 10 for tenacity