Rail Clamps

[Greg Elmassian]

Good one! that track was pulled up temporarily as the changes affected the yard lead, which is a WYE configuration.

I wound up moving the entire yard to accommodate a better path to walk along.

Before:

after:

 

[viaEstrecha]

I have several Massoth-style clamps left over from a random purchase of used joiners - could anyone advise the spec of suitable screws, please, so I can make use of the ones which came without any?

 

[Rhinochugger]

the split jaw inherently clamps on the bottom outer edge of the rail, clamping harder does not damage the clamp

vs hillman below... notice that as the pressure increases, you force the upper part up. I don't have a closeup of the Piko, but I have thrown away a number of hillmans where the top part bent up... a large percentage cracked over time.

Interesting - possibly because the different manufacturers' rail profiles are slightly different. I think that Hillman were originally designed for LGB track, and fit that profile OK without stressing. Those that I have are exclusively on LGB - LGB flexitrack joints and I haven't succeeded in breaking one yet.

I have managed to damage a couple of Accucraft clamps with the split-jaw profile, but they were solid not split and I was using them on rails of slightly different profile - LGB - Aristocraft.

I only have a few Accucraft split jaw left (they made both split and solid) but I do use them for my lift-out bridge which obviously involves repeated use (every time I mow the lawn) and on Aristo - Aristo profile these have lasted for about six years so far and still look good

 

[PhilP]

An email to Massoth may well get the spec?

Personally, I would take a joiner /screw to a local engineering supply trade counter, and ask..

My local (when in Tamworth) supplies company were always intrigued, by what I had / wanted..
They seemed to enjoy the break from their run of the mill requests.

PhilP

 

[dunnyrail]

I have several Massoth-style clamps left over from a random purchase of used joiners - could anyone advise the spec of suitable screws, please, so I can make use of the ones which came without any?
View attachment 313992

Hm sure there was a thread many moons ago about the size, certainly will be metric.

 

[The Shed]

I have several Massoth-style clamps left over from a random purchase of used joiners - could anyone advise the spec of suitable screws, please, so I can make use of the ones which came without any?

 

[maxi-model]

View attachment 314002

Make sure they are countersunk or preferably pan head type and in a stainless steel material. Brass threads may not have the strength required in this application. Max

 

[viaEstrecha]

Brilliant, thanks, chaps. A handy little bag of M3x8 I found in my collection of 'just in case' ironmongery, and with a touch of WD40, they do very nicely, thank you.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Interesting - possibly because the different manufacturers' rail profiles are slightly different. I think that Hillman were originally designed for LGB track, and fit that profile OK without stressing. Those that I have are exclusively on LGB - LGB flexitrack joints and I haven't succeeded in breaking one yet.

I have managed to damage a couple of Accucraft clamps with the split-jaw profile, but they were solid not split and I was using them on rails of slightly different profile - LGB - Aristocraft.

I only have a few Accucraft split jaw left (they made both split and solid) but I do use them for my lift-out bridge which obviously involves repeated use (every time I mow the lawn) and on Aristo - Aristo profile these have lasted for about six years so far and still look good

Actually, Hillmans ALWAYS had stress and were prone to stress fractures. This is because of the square corners of the rectangular slot in the joiner, and tightening further directly put stress on those inside corners. Talk to a mechanical engineer if you don't see this, it's why holes in plane structural members are ROUND, with no sharp corners.

look up "stress risers":
Stress-raisers are sharp corners, grooves, notches or acute changes of section that cause stress concentrations under normal loadings. They can be found on both rotating and static components. The stress concentration factors of sharp corners and grooves are high, and difficult to determine accurately.

I broke my share of Hillmans

Greg

 

[Rhinochugger]

Actually, Hillmans ALWAYS had stress and were prone to stress fractures. This is because of the square corners of the rectangular slot in the joiner, and tightening further directly put stress on those inside corners. Talk to a mechanical engineer if you don't see this, it's why holes in plane structural members are ROUND, with no sharp corners.

look up "stress risers":
Stress-raisers are sharp corners, grooves, notches or acute changes of section that cause stress concentrations under normal loadings. They can be found on both rotating and static components. The stress concentration factors of sharp corners and grooves are high, and difficult to determine accurately.

I broke my share of Hillmans

Greg

Yes, I get you, the De Havilland Comet 4 was the classic case of stress fracture, but, while I'm not doubting your experience with Hillman clamps, for some reason when I have used them on LGB profile, I haven't broken any ................... yet

What I was suggesting was that the Hillman sqaure profile may well match an equally square profile of the lower member of LGB track, and therefore no stress ensues. - T'was just a suggestion. The Hillman clamps that I have been using came to me second hand with the second hand LGB flexi track.

I don't have the right sort of micrometers to compare the various manufacturers' rail profiles - I only know from trying to join Aristo to LGB that those two, at least, are different.

 

[Rhinochugger]

Actually, Hillmans ALWAYS had stress and were prone to stress fractures. This is because of the square corners of the rectangular slot in the joiner, and tightening further directly put stress on those inside corners. Talk to a mechanical engineer if you don't see this, it's why holes in plane structural members are ROUND, with no sharp corners.

look up "stress risers":
Stress-raisers are sharp corners, grooves, notches or acute changes of section that cause stress concentrations under normal loadings. They can be found on both rotating and static components. The stress concentration factors of sharp corners and grooves are high, and difficult to determine accurately.

I broke my share of Hillmans

Greg

Yeah, I don't have a spare Hillman in the shed (they're all n use) but here's an LGB isolating fishplate - with a very square profile. OK it's plastic, but you don't have to force them on.

I've also taken an end shot of both LGB and Aristo rails, but I don't think the photography is good enough to show the difference.

I think I'm still at the position that Hillman clamps are fine with LGB profile - time will tell.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

take a picture with a hillman on the TARGET rail and you will understand, you have not looked I gather...

There are 2 scenarios:

#1 if the foot contacts the full depth of the slot FIRST, then you won't get stress fractures. Unfortunately this does not guarantee vertical alignment of the 2 rails.

The astute individual will also see that you "pay" for the sloped top of the foot, in combination with the screws being below the rail.

#2 the rail wedges into the top and bottom BEFORE the wide part of the foot reaches the full depth of the slot:

Again, you can see how the clamping will bend the clamp, and it will bend the upper part, and thus normally eventually cause a stress riser.

Also the astute individual will see that the right hand side has already bent somewhat. I tried straightening/flattening used hillmans that had bent up this way, but to more extreme (overtightened)..
EVERY one one of them broke.

It should be clear why I prefer this design:

 

[Rhinochugger]

take a picture with a hillman on the TARGET rail and you will understand, you have not looked I gather...

There are 2 scenarios:

#1 if the foot contacts the full depth of the slot FIRST, then you won't get stress fractures. Unfortunately this does not guarantee vertical alignment of the 2 rails.

The astute individual will also see that you "pay" for the sloped top of the foot, in combination with the screws being below the rail.

#2 the rail wedges into the top and bottom BEFORE the wide part of the foot reaches the full depth of the slot:

Again, you can see how the clamping will bend the clamp, and it will bend the upper part, and thus normally eventually cause a stress riser.

Also the astute individual will see that the right hand side has already bent somewhat. I tried straightening/flattening used hillmans that had bent up this way, but to more extreme (overtightened)..
EVERY one one of them broke.

It should be clear why I prefer this design:

Well, no, because all of my Hillman clamps are out in the garden and it's dark by now.

Yep, I'll go with the top picture that you show here. I can't say that I have noticed any undue difference in level of the rail head - but then again, I don't operate the high speed main line consists that you do.

While I can see that you prefer the split jaw, I'm still happy with Hillman clamps on LGB profile rail.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Yeah, they will work with scenario #1 and with the same rail or consistent rail.

I have scenario #2 with Aristo SS rail, Lewis must have contracted with a different manufacturer each time, there are variations in dimensions. We have/had more track options here in the USA, so mixed track is much more common, and Hillmans quickly went the way of the Dodo.

Greg

 

[dunnyrail]

Have joined LGB with Aristo G using Massoth clamps and there is no noticeable difference in height.

In some other places I have joined Aristo to Peco using Hillman Peco/Aristo under joiners with the slightest ridge felt by the finger, but this causes no issues.

As for the two Hillman types Over (the fishplate/joiner) or Under (original fishplate/joiner removed) I have had a few screw breaks but only on the Over type where over tightening can bend the screw. In all cases I have been lucky enough to be able to remove the screw bits with pliers and re use the Hillman with replacement screws, Hillman thoughtfully supplied adfitional screws with orders. But I have in the past sourced some replacement screws following links from the old Mad days.

 

[Rhinochugger]

Have joined LGB with Aristo G using Massoth clamps and there is no noticeable difference in height.

In some other places I have joined Aristo to Peco using Hillman Peco/Aristo under joiners with the slightest ridge felt by the finger, but this causes no issues.

As for the two Hillman types Over (the fishplate/joiner) or Under (original fishplate/joiner removed) I have had a few screw breaks but only on the Over type where over tightening can bend the screw. In all cases I have been lucky enough to be able to remove the screw bits with pliers and re use the Hillman with replacement screws, Hillman thoughtfully supplied adfitional screws with orders. But I have in the past sourced some replacement screws following links from the old Mad days.

I haven't used Massoth, but there is a chance that they offer a better possibility for connecting different manufacturers' rail profiles as the solid wedge is on the inside (we talked about this somewhere else).

 

[dunnyrail]

I haven't used Massoth, but there is a chance that they offer a better possibility for connecting different manufacturers' rail profiles as the solid wedge is on the inside (we talked about this somewhere else).

Indeed so there has been much clampicity talkitivity chat in the forum.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

I do find it interesting, when you want stuff to last years, these little things can have an effect. My clamps cost a fair percentage of the track, so far both are way over 10 years old, working on 20...

 

[Rhinochugger]

I do find it interesting, when you want stuff to last years, these little things can have an effect. My clamps cost a fair percentage of the track, so far both are way over 10 years old, working on 20...

Yep, and in all weathers

 

[Greg Elmassian]

I'm certainly more mild than most of you guys, but I do have the added fun of salt air.