playmofire
Registered
I understood that you meant to prosecute. To persecute, very similar word, means to be hostile to someone or ill-treat them, especially because of their race, religion or political beliefs.
Political correctness = a little something missing
- Thread starter ebay mike
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I understood that you meant to prosecute. To persecute, very similar word, means to be hostile to someone or ill-treat them, especially because of their race, religion or political beliefs.
korm kormsen
Registered
you made me chuckle. that is exactly, what they are doing. worse, they even do it to persons, that for historical correctness or for realism add these simbols to models.
(that's typical German: either a 110% in favor, or 110% against. seldom moderate)
Madman
Registered
This subject could get us in alot of hot water with the moderators and for that matter, anyone with a conscience. Over here, we are seeing an emboldenment of extreme right wing types. Personally I dislike model displays of WWII German railway, tank, trucks, vehicles of any kind for that matter, where accuracy is held to with strict accuracy. It simply offends me. I feel that , if seen by the extremists, it just helps their cause.
That said, it's your decision and that of the moderators. If I happen to open a post with the swastika showing, I'll simply move on.
That said, it's your decision and that of the moderators. If I happen to open a post with the swastika showing, I'll simply move on.
David1226
Registered
I do not have an issue with displaying these symbols on historically accurate models of the period, they were a fact of life. If we attempt to suppress this are we doing exactly what most moderate people accuse Holocaust Deniers and extreme Right Wing advocates off, and that is attempting to re-write history. Are we in danger of sanitising WWII for present and future generations so they fail to grasp the true horror of it. We are supposed to collectively have learned a lesson from WWII so that the tragedy will never be repeated, by suppressing details of it are we in danger of forgetting. There is a difference between depicting symbols and promoting them.
David
David
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maxi-model
UK/US/ROW steam narrow gauge railways 1:1
Some 40 years ago, when I still worked as a supervisor at Harrods, I worked with a particular man who was nearing retirement. Like many of his age there he had been involved in a military capacity in WWII. At times he would start to visibly shake and ask to be excused for a while. Later on he mentioned to me he had spent 3 years in a Japanese POW camp and could not bare to be in close proximity to anybody he thought was of Japanese nationality. Something that was not an uncommon occurrence in what was then very much becoming a "tourist trap".
I cite this as it is difficult for those that did not directly witness or experience the atrocities that were perpetrated in those times, and at others elsewhere, to appreciate the effect the that people, symbols and sounds associated with them can represent to their victims - or even their subsequent families. I'd always thought my father to be a liberal minded chap intent that I formed my own opinions rather than foisting his own experiences of the causes resulting in his and his family's flight from Austria. It only became clear to me much later in life that his apparent "liberal" (read- silent) attitude was more a result of that still traumatised 12 year old that still remained in him not being able to come to terms with the past events to the day he died.
It is always very hard to discern of those who insist on applying the symbolism of that, and other, "difficult" eras to models or "reenacted" representations real intent. Is it really for historical accuracy's sake or more a need to confront those who suffered with further indignations ? It's a tough one to call. As they say the devil is in the detail. Max
65 1057
Railways @ 1.435 mm/ 1.000 mm/ 750 mm and 45mm
Let's put aside our hobby for a moment and look at a similar case.
I hope this will help to understand how such cases are being handled in Germany. I lean on an official text of the Berlin school of economics and law.
§ 86 a StGB criminalizes the use of the marks of unconstitutional organizations, so it also covers the characteristics of former National Socialist organizations - even “confusing similar” marks/symbols are covered.
The purpose of this law is to prevent the population from feeling that a revival of anti-constitutional organizations would be tolerated by the state.
The logo of the fashion brand "Boy London" represents the NSDAP party eagle, due to the distinctive appearance of the eagle, as well as the central role of this symbol as a badge of the NSDAP in the Nazi era.
www.dailymail.co.uk
Consequently – this fashion brand should not be sold in Germany. To my knowledge, the final decision is still pending. It is nevertheless frightening that such symbols are used so obviously and arbitrarily for fashion purposes.
This trivializes the symbols used, and their use becomes “normal/accepted”. Exactly this is against the protective purpose of § 86 a StGB.
Something else was the E19 exhibition: The participation of the Deutsche Reichsbahn in the crimes of the National Socialists was described in detail in the permanent exhibition of the main building.
Although the context and the intention of the exhibition was clear, the DB banished this locomotive to the depot, because neo-Nazis were repeatedly photographed in front of the loco...
Andreas
I hope this will help to understand how such cases are being handled in Germany. I lean on an official text of the Berlin school of economics and law.
§ 86 a StGB criminalizes the use of the marks of unconstitutional organizations, so it also covers the characteristics of former National Socialist organizations - even “confusing similar” marks/symbols are covered.
The purpose of this law is to prevent the population from feeling that a revival of anti-constitutional organizations would be tolerated by the state.
The logo of the fashion brand "Boy London" represents the NSDAP party eagle, due to the distinctive appearance of the eagle, as well as the central role of this symbol as a badge of the NSDAP in the Nazi era.
Angry shoppers demand fashion label changes its logo because it looks too much like a NAZI eagle symbol
The eagle logo depicting the Boy London brand bears a striking resemblance to the national emblem introduced by Adolf Hitler in Nazi Germany in 1935.
Consequently – this fashion brand should not be sold in Germany. To my knowledge, the final decision is still pending. It is nevertheless frightening that such symbols are used so obviously and arbitrarily for fashion purposes.
This trivializes the symbols used, and their use becomes “normal/accepted”. Exactly this is against the protective purpose of § 86 a StGB.
Something else was the E19 exhibition: The participation of the Deutsche Reichsbahn in the crimes of the National Socialists was described in detail in the permanent exhibition of the main building.
Die E-Lok aus der NS-Zeit | DB Museum
www.dbmuseum.de
Although the context and the intention of the exhibition was clear, the DB banished this locomotive to the depot, because neo-Nazis were repeatedly photographed in front of the loco...
Andreas
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Rhinochugger
Retired Oik
Interesting and slightly off-topic - the Poles are wanting to bring more tourists in to see the 'Wolf's Lair' - the remains of Hitler's bunker. At the moment, they have dummy soldiers in Nazi uniforms, and opinion is divided as to whether more lifelike re-enactment is appropriate.
korm kormsen
Registered
gentlemen,
normally i am a fan of thread drifts.
but in this case i'm very sorry, that i helped this thread to be derailed into the direction of the fruitless and polarizing subject of retro politics.
(only actual politics are worse than that)
normally i am a fan of thread drifts.
but in this case i'm very sorry, that i helped this thread to be derailed into the direction of the fruitless and polarizing subject of retro politics.
(only actual politics are worse than that)
Rhinochugger
Retired Oik
It's actually pretty important stuff - and what is most encouraging is the way in which it has been openly, and politely discussed on this thread.
As has been said, there re many different facets relating to the prinicpal issue, and it has been quite enlightening reading all the opinions that have been expressed.
We don't always get it right on this forum, but for the most part we do, and on this thread I believe, it is doing justice to the subject from a wide viewpoint.
playmofire
Registered
My only purpose in replying to korm';s post was to explain that the word he was wanting was "prosecute" and not "persecute". Confusing the two is an easy enough mistake to make, even for a native speaker.
I can recall that when I was about 10 or 11, so that's 64 or 65 years ago, on a BBC TV children's programme a joke was made about confusing the two words when a boy hung a notice on his bedroom door reading "Trespassers will be persecuted". I didn't get it, so my father had to explain to me that the notice should have read, "Trespassers will be prosecuted". Actually, this too was wrong as trepass (other than criminal trespass where someone enters someone's property unlawfully with the intent to commit damage and does so) as trespass is not a criminal offence but a civil one and the sentence should have read, "Trespassers will be sued in tort"
But more seriously, in the last few years there has been a coarsening of political dialogue as can be seen in the use of such words as "traitors" and "scum", often where people are just carrying out the duties they have been appointed to do or expressing an opinion contrary to someone else. You see the same thing at political meetings in chanted slogans against opponents. It is well to remember that oppressive regimes have often had their roots in just such beginnings.
I can recall that when I was about 10 or 11, so that's 64 or 65 years ago, on a BBC TV children's programme a joke was made about confusing the two words when a boy hung a notice on his bedroom door reading "Trespassers will be persecuted". I didn't get it, so my father had to explain to me that the notice should have read, "Trespassers will be prosecuted". Actually, this too was wrong as trepass (other than criminal trespass where someone enters someone's property unlawfully with the intent to commit damage and does so) as trespass is not a criminal offence but a civil one and the sentence should have read, "Trespassers will be sued in tort"
But more seriously, in the last few years there has been a coarsening of political dialogue as can be seen in the use of such words as "traitors" and "scum", often where people are just carrying out the duties they have been appointed to do or expressing an opinion contrary to someone else. You see the same thing at political meetings in chanted slogans against opponents. It is well to remember that oppressive regimes have often had their roots in just such beginnings.
Gavin Sowry
Garden Railroader and Raconteur
At the risk of thread drift..... I'm sitting in my office (having lunch) and looking out across the harbour at Oriental Bay, birthplace of the Gestapo's #1 on their wanted list.
New Zealand born, Australian educated, American journalist was sent to Germany to interview the new Chancellor. She didn't like what she heard, so she joined the French Resistance, and when things got too hot there, became an English spy. Famously killed a German sentry, barehanded. Google her on the web, Nancy Wake (the White Mouse), fascinating story. I also bring this up, because a while back our TV people did a drama/doc on her, and filmed all the train scenes just up the road from my place. Made a right hash of it too, just slapping a 'spider' on a NZ engine was just not going to be authentic.
New Zealand born, Australian educated, American journalist was sent to Germany to interview the new Chancellor. She didn't like what she heard, so she joined the French Resistance, and when things got too hot there, became an English spy. Famously killed a German sentry, barehanded. Google her on the web, Nancy Wake (the White Mouse), fascinating story. I also bring this up, because a while back our TV people did a drama/doc on her, and filmed all the train scenes just up the road from my place. Made a right hash of it too, just slapping a 'spider' on a NZ engine was just not going to be authentic.
playmofire
Registered
Earlier this year, I read the following books in the order shown and despite the order being historically backwards, the three together (and, indeed, individually) gave an eerie picture of the world today. The circumstances of the times may be different, but what is happening today is very similar.
The books were:
Travellers in the Third Reich, Julia Boyd, which looks at the rise of Facism in Germany from 1929-1934 through the eyes of visitors to Germany, politicians, businessmen, tourists, students, sports men and women;
The War that Ended Peace, Margaret Macmillan, which looks at Europe from 1900 to 1914, year by year and the relations between the major European countries;
The Age of Decadence, Britain 1880 - 1914, Simon Heffer, which looks at the social changes and stresses in Britian over those years.
Apart from the first, all are long reads (MacMillan is 605 pages of main text and Heffer 826), but all are interesting and eye opening. MacMillan, for example, argues that Europe drifted into war because the major countries believed war couldn't happen after nearly 45 years of peace following the 1870-1871 war between France and Prussia - yes in that time there had been tensions and close calls which came close to a war between two or more European powers, but something always turned up in the end to prevent it. After something like 75 years without major war, has the world drifted into a similar mindset?
Heffer puts forward the view that Britain from its peak of economic and naval power and as the major global power, withdraws from the rest of Europe, regarding itself as unaffected by what may happen there, but in doing so increasingly is living in a world of nostalgia for a Victorian high peak which is passed, with Germany and the USA overtaking her both economically and globally in particular, and with her not realising that she is not and cannot be isolated from what happens in Europe.
Boyd in large measure leaves the reader to react,. She documents what people wrote or said about Germany as politics moved increasingly towards violence against minority groups and towards the extreme right, not in a great rush but in a slow, drip by drip process, with vilification of Jews and some foreigners such as Roma becoming for many in Germany and visiting Germany, and the resulting rise of Nazism as being just something that was happening.
This may all sound boring, but it isn't.
EDIT: MacMillan and Heffer are on oppsite sides of the political spectrum, MacMillan being liberal and Heffer conservative.
The books were:
Travellers in the Third Reich, Julia Boyd, which looks at the rise of Facism in Germany from 1929-1934 through the eyes of visitors to Germany, politicians, businessmen, tourists, students, sports men and women;
The War that Ended Peace, Margaret Macmillan, which looks at Europe from 1900 to 1914, year by year and the relations between the major European countries;
The Age of Decadence, Britain 1880 - 1914, Simon Heffer, which looks at the social changes and stresses in Britian over those years.
Apart from the first, all are long reads (MacMillan is 605 pages of main text and Heffer 826), but all are interesting and eye opening. MacMillan, for example, argues that Europe drifted into war because the major countries believed war couldn't happen after nearly 45 years of peace following the 1870-1871 war between France and Prussia - yes in that time there had been tensions and close calls which came close to a war between two or more European powers, but something always turned up in the end to prevent it. After something like 75 years without major war, has the world drifted into a similar mindset?
Heffer puts forward the view that Britain from its peak of economic and naval power and as the major global power, withdraws from the rest of Europe, regarding itself as unaffected by what may happen there, but in doing so increasingly is living in a world of nostalgia for a Victorian high peak which is passed, with Germany and the USA overtaking her both economically and globally in particular, and with her not realising that she is not and cannot be isolated from what happens in Europe.
Boyd in large measure leaves the reader to react,. She documents what people wrote or said about Germany as politics moved increasingly towards violence against minority groups and towards the extreme right, not in a great rush but in a slow, drip by drip process, with vilification of Jews and some foreigners such as Roma becoming for many in Germany and visiting Germany, and the resulting rise of Nazism as being just something that was happening.
This may all sound boring, but it isn't.
EDIT: MacMillan and Heffer are on oppsite sides of the political spectrum, MacMillan being liberal and Heffer conservative.
maxi-model
UK/US/ROW steam narrow gauge railways 1:1
Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Now where did I hear that ? Max
JimmyB
Now retired - trains and fishing
Though I understand your sentiment, there are a lot of "re-enactment" societies with celebrate war, even if they were hundreds of years ago, so this poses the question after what period of time does it became acceptable - if ever.
Madman
Registered
I agree that history, good or bad, should not be suppressed. However, I disagree that "toys" should be modeled after certain historical events. Should there be a model of a black man being hung from a tree ?
Madman
Registered
We have many re-enactments of the Revolutionary and Civil wars in our country. I would say that is because those two conflicts were so crucial to our country's development. I don't know of any re-enactments of the Nazis hearing people off to gas chambers and such. To me, that would be cruelty to any survivors, not to mention how it could affect the minds of children too young to understand or adults who don't know their history.
When my kids were still in school, a group of parents objected to having the book Huckleberry Finn in the school library, because Mark Twain used the "N" word. That, to me, is sanitizing history. Apparently, not enough people have read 1984 , George Orwell.
True, many, many films were made and are still being made about all aspects of WWII. But a live re-enactment of death camps would seem so vulgar.
David1226
Registered
Dan
I cannot speak for the US but I have never heard of anything even remotely suggested, never mind being enacted in Europe, it would never happen. I think you are overthinking the original topic of this thread. I could come up with some witty put down but I think this thread has more than run its course and hopefully a Moderator will lock it.
David
Ralphmp
Registered
I worked for an IT company with a major centre in Krakow. When we had customers visit the site (mostly from other European countries and the US), as well as enjoying the particular delights of the city we were often asked if we could include time in the schedule for them to visit Auschwitz.
These were all people who were born after WW2 had ended but who, in many cases, had a connection in that their parents / older relatives had been involved in the conflict. Based on their feedback the visits had a sobering effect.
However, it appears that for later generations the impact of visiting Auschwitz is much less - in many cases they have no living relatives who were involved - and they can if they choose see horrific things on a daily basis via the internet.
So I wonder whether the issue of causing offence by using insignia from a bygone conflict or modelling items used in this conflict is more of an issue for those who are closer to it in time, and the more time that passes the less of an issue it becomes for most people.
Note the "most" - there will always be folk who for reasons known only to themselves insist on trying to keep a conflict going - the "New" IRA, the morons at soccer games, the groups who wished they'd been around when the conflict occurred, etc. - and I guess if someone chooses to create replicas of past conflicts they need to realise there is today a significant risk of people automatically assuming they are aligned with these groups and acting in the customary 21st century melodramatic fashion via social media.
These were all people who were born after WW2 had ended but who, in many cases, had a connection in that their parents / older relatives had been involved in the conflict. Based on their feedback the visits had a sobering effect.
However, it appears that for later generations the impact of visiting Auschwitz is much less - in many cases they have no living relatives who were involved - and they can if they choose see horrific things on a daily basis via the internet.
So I wonder whether the issue of causing offence by using insignia from a bygone conflict or modelling items used in this conflict is more of an issue for those who are closer to it in time, and the more time that passes the less of an issue it becomes for most people.
Note the "most" - there will always be folk who for reasons known only to themselves insist on trying to keep a conflict going - the "New" IRA, the morons at soccer games, the groups who wished they'd been around when the conflict occurred, etc. - and I guess if someone chooses to create replicas of past conflicts they need to realise there is today a significant risk of people automatically assuming they are aligned with these groups and acting in the customary 21st century melodramatic fashion via social media.