Piko central station problem

[scook]

Hi all

i have recently completed one loop of my railway, I’m using a full piko system,

I had ran 2 lgb locos on the loop with 2 motors,

the hand set was showing 1.9\ 3.4 amps being pulled depending on speed, after an hour the red stop lights on the hand set were flashing,

I was unable to reset the power by pressing the red flashing stop buttons

the central station was still lit up green

the only way I could repower the track was to turn the mains power on and off again

after shorter periods of time the same kept happening

thinking I had too much of a load on, I tried just running one 2 motor loco, pulling 1.4/1.9 amps, on a different day

after an hour it has cut out again with the central station showing the green ok light,

there are around 19v in the track,

any ideas would be well received,

many thanks Sam

 

[PhilP]

My guess would be the present very hot weather..
I would guess the system will be working outside of it's normal conditions?

PhilP

 

[scook]

My guess would be the present very hot weather..
I would guess the system will be working outside of it's normal conditions?

PhilP

I have thought this, the digital system is inside, maybe I could try putting it in a cooler room,

thanks

 

[PhilP]

I have thought this, the digital system is inside, maybe I could try putting it in a cooler room,

thanks

I believe it has a separate power supply?

Check both units for temperature.

PhilP

 

[scook]

I believe it has a separate power supply?

Check both units for temperature.

PhilP

Yes the power supply seems ok, the central station does get hot,

sam

 

[Greg Elmassian]

What is the max amps output of your Piko system? is it 5 amps?

Greg

 

[scook]

What is the max amps output of your Piko system? is it 5 amps?

Greg

Yes it is,

sam

 

[Greg Elmassian]

I believe the track output comes off the central station box, that is where the output transistors would be that would generate heat.

If the command station is hot, it could overheat and shut itself off.

it should not at 3.5 amps though

Greg

 

[PhilP]

I believe the track output comes off the central station box, that is where the output transistors would be that would generate heat.

If the command station is hot, it could overheat and shut itself off.

it should not at 3.5 amps though

Greg

We are experience daytime temperatures that are 11-12C above the norm..

PhilP

 

[JimmyB]

We are experience daytime temperatures that are 11-12C above the norm..

PhilP

That is air temperature in the shade, track temperature in the sum can easily exceed 50 C

 

[Greg Elmassian]

That is simple, don't put the controller on the track! (i know you just wanted to impress us with the track temp, but it's not germane to this problem)

Greg

 

[scook]

Had another run today with help from others, again same issue,
Picture below shows a very small hole for air to flow into and out of the unit

So we decided to take the base off and try the unit upside down with greater air flow


Unit ran for well over an hour and was already hot from previous run, non of the plastic was hot, just the middle of the green board

Question is do these units run hot?

Before I ran the system with the base on ,the unit gave out some heat from the area where my finger is,

Has anyone experienced this? With the translucent covers down the air flow is non existent as the only opening in under the silver square,

Thanks Sam

 

[Greg Elmassian]

so, the heat sinks are the large silver (anodized aluminum) blocks, and in normal situ, the fins are pointing up, the properly designed way.

So for using natural convection for cooling, you want air to enter at the bottom, get warmed and exhaust from the top... this is the definition of convection cooling.

So I see the exhaust, where is the intake, since there is no picture with the bottom cover on, or is the first picture the bottom of the unit?

If this is true, then the system is not designed to handle the ambient temperatures you are experiencing.

first, keep out of sunlight of course, but I would add some forced cooling, unfortunately the best case would be an exhaust fan, somehow ducted where your finger is.

Does not have to be high speed, even a tiny bit of airflow will make a big difference (look up "boundary layer" if curious.

I'm sure you're not happy with any of this, since you are not running at max rating and even then getting thermal shutdown, but I predict you won't solve it with the manufacturer.

Greg

 

[scook]

so, the heat sinks are the large silver (anodized aluminum) blocks, and in normal situ, the fins are pointing up, the properly designed way.

So for using natural convection for cooling, you want air to enter at the bottom, get warmed and exhaust from the top... this is the definition of convection cooling.

So I see the exhaust, where is the intake, since there is no picture with the bottom cover on, or is the first picture the bottom of the unit?

If this is true, then the system is not designed to handle the ambient temperatures you are experiencing.

first, keep out of sunlight of course, but I would add some forced cooling, unfortunately the best case would be an exhaust fan, somehow ducted where your finger is.

Does not have to be high speed, even a tiny bit of airflow will make a big difference (look up "boundary layer" if curious.

I'm sure you're not happy with any of this, since you are not running at max rating and even then getting thermal shutdown, but I predict you won't solve it with the manufacturer.

Greg

Sorry Greg I should have included these pictures of the base, the unit is upside down, as you can see there is no air intake , just the exhaust under the silver plate on the top with the piko writing

Sam

 

[ARIA31]

Did you try to simply put new batteries into the handheld controller.

 

[scook]

Did you try to simply put new batteries into the handheld controller.

Yes the cut out has happened on at least 3 different hand sets

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Yeah Sam, therein lies the problem, think of the system like an old time heater, or how a chimney works, cool air enters at the bottom, and as the air is heated it comes out the top, a natural "flow"

You just have a hole at the top, no "flow through".

I would bet dollars to doughnuts that a hole in the bottom would make all the difference. Now you use the natural "heat rises" situation to create a cooling flow. Crazy, since it looks like the heat sinks are adequate in size, but with no airflow "path" the cooling is severely limited.

My NCE system is in a flat black metal box, and the power transistors bolted to the box. Black is the best "emitter" of heat, so the only heat sink is the metal case. It will do 10 amps solid all day, and short peaks to 20.

The heat sinks in your unit are nice sized, but without air flow, hampered to get rid of the heat (they should have been black anodized also, but that is a fine point).

Clearly at approximately 1/2 load the design cannot sustain full rated output in your ambient temps, since it fails at half load.

Greg

 

[Paul M]

Seems an odd thing for the manufacturer to miss, they obviously deal with electronics the whole, so not to have provided a decent cooling system seems silly

 

[PhilP]

Try putting it on a couple of pencils (or similar) to raise it off the surface..

That will allow extra airflow.

You could also put it on a sheet of white paper. - That sheet of paxolin(?) is quite dense and dark in colour, so will absorb heat.

PhilP

 

[Neil Robinson]

Is your unit still under warranty? If so arrange for a replacement from your supplier. If not cut a few air holes in the base and add feet to raise the unit of the deck. The unit isn't waterproof and the internal voltages are only about that on the track and other exposed wiring.