Petrol railmotor (aka Shed on wheels)

ge_rik

British narrow gauge (esp. Southwold and W&LLR)
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After a few trials and tribulations, my first battery powered vehicle has joined the line. It's (very loosely) based on the Ford Railmotors which started appearing the the 1920s.
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Mine is based on a couple of Andel freelance coach kits and does tend to remind me of a motorised shed.

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Continued ...........
 
Railmotor 2

Each coach has interior lights and directional headlights and some detailing of the interior:

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Continued..........
 
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It is remote controlled with a small key fob and circuit board designed to be used for dimming LEDs.

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However, it is seriously underpowered. The powered coach works OK on its own but when I add the trailer it struggles with even the slightest incline. I need it to be doubled-ended to avoid having turntables at each end of the line.

A couple of options I'm considering is to add a motor to the trailer so both are powered. Or replacing the motor in the power car with something more beefy. I've seen some 12v motors complete with gearbox on eBay which seem quite reasonable - some reduce the output to 2 rpm. I'm wondering if one which reduces the output to 100 rpm will be OK if attached to a 40:1 worm/gear mechanism - or would I be better off with a 300 rpm gearbox?

Also - can I use two 12v Li-po packs in parallel to give me more running time? I remember reading somewhere (on this forum) that you shouldn't connect Li-po packs together - or am I imagining it?

Rik

Edit: Just figured out that 100rpm into a 40:1 worm drive will give 2.5rpm on the drive wheels which may be about the right speed for a hearse but methinks is a bit too slow for a railbus - even the 300rpm motor would only give 7.5rpm which again would be painfully slow. There is a motor which gives 1000rpm which would give 25rpm final drive which I'm thinking might be nearer to scale speed. I think I'll start by motorising the trailer - a much easier (and slightly cheaper) job.
 
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BTW - one of the drivers is a modified pall-bearer (no idea who makes them it came as part of a lot on eBay).

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I think he's praying - which is probably very wise given my scratch-bodging skills! ;) :thumbdown:

Rik

PS - Can one of the mods combine my two threads on this topic - I clicked the wrong button when making the second posting
 
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Very nice - look at home - Col. Stephens would have been proud to own them:thumbup:
 
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ge_rik said:
A couple of options I'm considering is to add a motor to the trailer so both are powered. Or replacing the motor in the power car with something more beefy. I've seen some 12v motors complete with gearbox on eBay which seem quite reasonable - some reduce the output to 2 rpm. I'm wondering if one which reduces the output to 100 rpm will be OK if attached to a 40:1 worm/gear mechanism - or would I be better off with a 300 rpm gearbox?
Most early railmotors looked like a mobile conservatory (as did the early buses), but that's part of their charm..... ;)

Looks like yours has an IP 16:1 gearbox? Which means the motor won't be developing a lot of power until it gets close to escape velocity.

My IP based railcars have 30:1 gearing and the large IP motor, powered by 4 x AAA 900mAH NiMH cells and controlled with a simple manual transistor speed control. FWIW, on reasonable grades, the goods railmotor will run for 2hr+ with three 4 wheel wagons weighing about 200g each......

FWIW. When I was bench testing them, the passenger railmotor lifted itself and it's 4 wheel trailer up a 1:20 slope with no strain. It finally stalled on a 1:12 slope with the steel wheels slipping on clean brass rail. The goods motor was struggling on a 1:20 slope with it's three wagon load and slipped to a standstill on a 1:15 slope.

What is happening when your railcars stall? Are the wheels still slipping? If so a bit of ballast over the driving axle may improve things without having to do a major rebuild.

I can't post photos or links yet, but if you go to the 'Garden Railway Forum' and search for the topic 'TVT Railmotors' you'll see photos of how my railmotors are arranged.

If you decide to rebuild the drive, the gear ratio depends on the motor speed, but I'd aim for somewhere between 1:30 and 1:60, depending on the voltage and motor revs.

Regards,
Graeme
 
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GTB said:
If you decide to rebuild the drive, the gear ratio depends on the motor speed, but I'd aim for somewhere between 1:30 and 1:60, depending on the voltage and motor revs.
Regards,
Graeme
Graeme
That's really helpful - thanks. Yes - it is the bog standard IP Engineering gearbox - I assumed it was 40:1 - which is what it says on their website - http://www.ipengineering.co.uk/page...ph I need (and maybe more besides). Rik
 
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Graeme
Looking at your postings on the other forum - it does look as if your worm wheel is larger than the bog-standard one which is in the gearbox I'm using:
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Here's my IP gearbox
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And your end-products look at lot more railway-like than mine...
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(images linked from Garden Railway Forum - hope you don't mind)

Thanks again for your guidance.

Rik

Edit: PS - I note also your wheels are smaller than mine - which I assume will also make a difference to the tractive effort
 
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ge_rik said:
That's really helpful - thanks. Yes - it is the bog standard IP Engineering gearbox - I assumed it was 40:1 - which is what it says on their website -
Rik,

I'd noticed that, but it must be a typo, as the gear wheel is too small for it to be a 40:1 reduction, without adding another gear stage.

For any simple worm drive gear box, the reduction is calculated by counting the no of teeth on the worm wheel and dividing that by the no of starts on the worm. Ivan uses standard off the shelf 0.5 mod plastic gears and the worms are single start, so the reduction can be worked out easily by counting the teeth on the gear wheel and he only sells 16 tooth and 30 tooth gear wheels.

The large IP motor is an MM28, or the equivalent RE280, type. These are nominally a 3-6V motor that develops maximum power at about about 9000-10000 rpm.

My railmotors have 24mm wheels and 4 x 1.2V cells, so travel at around 25 scale mph at their maximum speed setting. I usually run them at about 2/3 speed so the motor and gears aren't howling. In the photos the models have the original 20mm dia wheels, but they've since been increased to 24 mm dia, mostly for appearance, but with the bonus of a higher top speed without having to find the space for another battery cell.

ge_rik said:
Hopefully a li-po will have a 'flatter' decay rate than alkalines (yes?).
The discharge curves for LiPo that I've seen aren't markedly different to NiMH. The r/c car and aircraft modellers love them because they have about twice the energy density as NiMH cells.

Lower weight for the same power output isn't an important consideration for model railways, the opposite in fact. We need as much weight as possible for traction purposes, given the co-efficient of friction for metal wheels on metal rails is only about 0.2. The lower self discharge rate of LiPo technology is useful though, especially if the model isn't run very often.

ge_rik said:
Another option I'm considering is making a baggage van to go between the two cars over the top of an LGB or Aristo motor block. Then I'll be certain to have the oomph I need (and maybe more besides).
You'll certainly get a more reliable and powerful drive by going down that road.

My main interest is building models and since I can give a cat lessons in being stubborn/patient, my normal reaction would be to keep fiddling until it worked.

From what I read of your railway, you are more of an operator than I am, so a reliable solution is probably the more important outcome for you.

Regards,
Graeme
 
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Nice stuff thanks for posting these
 
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Thanks Graeme, really useful information. You're right - my tinkering lasts only as long as is necessary and then I want to get outside and get things running.

I'm interested in the aluminium frame you've used for your gearbox. Is that one of your own (from alu extrusion) or have you sourced it from somewhere? I'd certainly like to increase the gear ratio somehow but doubt I'll be able to squeeze a 30 toothed gear wheel into the IP frame - the slots for the mounting screws I don't think will stretch far enough for the larger gear wheel.

Rik

Rik
 
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ge_rik said:
I'm interested in the aluminium frame you've used for your gearbox.
Hi Rik,

I make mine from a length of aluminium rectangular channel extrusion left over from a bathroom renovation many years ago. It's an odd size and narrower than I'd like at about 20mm x 14mm, but the price was right. ;)

0.5 Mod 30:1 gears require a spacing of 10mm between the axle and motor shaft centres. If you have a drill stand (pillar drill in the UK?) this sort of 'gearbox' isn't difficult to make, but you need to be careful when marking out and centre-popping the holes.

You can actually get much the same thing by cutting an IP Budget chassis in half, as they use 30:1 gears. Cheaper than the 16:1 gearbox and you get a pair of 20mm wheelsets thrown in...........

Cambrian Models have 30:1 and 40:1 gear sets in metal and I've read the 30:1 gears have the same centres as the plastic IP gears. The old style Romford 30:1 and 40:1 gears used in OO models need about 10mm spacing and may be what Cambrian are using. Metal gears fitted in an IP Budget chassis would be reasonably bullet proof I'd think.

You'll notice that my gearboxes are fitted with a cover soldered up from thin brass sheet. It isn't an airtight fit, but it keeps dirt and other crud out and keeps in the grease I use for lubricating the gears.

IP power their Tralee & Dingle railcar kit with 30:1 gears and a small flat motor mounted to the floor, but gear mesh is more difficult to adjust and plastic gears chop out rapidly if not meshed properly.

Graeme
 
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really nice... seems odd it can't move a couple of cars?? is it traction or motor torque?

On the lithium batteries I would ask the question in the battery area, but if in doubt only use them specifically as designed, as then your driver really would be praying or perhaps attending HIS funeral :rolf:
 
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Thanks Graeme - plenty of useful advice here. I think I'll investigate the Cambrian gears as already the 16:1 gear wheel is showing signs of wear - I think it's feeling the strain!

I'll post something on the battery area about connecting Li-po batts in parallel and see what comes up.

Rik
 
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Well I was thinking of using this ip motor to power a re gauged piko railbus, seems there won't be enough power.
 
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hornbeam said:
Well I was thinking of using this ip motor to power a re gauged piko railbus, seems there won't be enough power.
I think the motor would have sufficient power if it can be geared down sufficiently. It's not so much the motor as the gearbox which seems to be the limiting factor. Does the railbus not have a motor and gear system already which used?

Rik
 
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