New Li-Iion battery technology

[GAP]

This from the Guardian, it's about fast charging electric cars but does mention a different construction technique for Li-Ion batteries, looks like Li-Ion battery technology might be improving in the future possibly making them safer.
Electric car batteries with five-minute charging times produced | Electric, hybrid and low-emission cars | The Guardian

 

[Paul M]

This from the Guardian, it's about fast charging electric cars but does mention a different construction technique for Li-Ion batteries, looks like Li-Ion battery technology might be improving in the future possibly making them safer.
Electric car batteries with five-minute charging times produced | Electric, hybrid and low-emission cars | The Guardian

I read that, if getting a battery to charge that quickly can be done, then that is the last obstacle in the way of getting an electric car. At the moment, the thought of sitting queuing up for hours at a service station does do ot for me

 

[3 minutes of fame]

The limitation will always be the charging rate. If you think about a 72KW/Hr battery, that requires over 300 amps to charge it up in an hour and 3600 amps to charge it up in 5 minutes!

The average household supply is 100A and a petrol station might have 300A 3 phase, so that's a massive investment in electrical supply capacity to bring in super quick chargers to the mass market. Although generating capacity is probably OK, low voltage distribution - 3000V and under would need to be entirely reconfigured to allow for the required number of chargers to be installed. Imagine a garage with 12 fast charge sockets, That would require a likely supply of 3KV @ 2800A !! That's quite a big cable to be running to the filling station...

 

[dunnyrail]

The limitation will always be the charging rate. If you think about a 72KW/Hr battery, that requires over 300 amps to charge it up in an hour and 3600 amps to charge it up in 5 minutes!

The average household supply is 100A and a petrol station might have 300A 3 phase, so that's a massive investment in electrical supply capacity to bring in super quick chargers to the mass market. Although generating capacity is probably OK, low voltage distribution - 3000V and under would need to be entirely reconfigured to allow for the required number of chargers to be installed. Imagine a garage with 12 fast charge sockets, That would require a likely supply of 3KV @ 2800A !! That's quite a big cable to be running to the filling station...

Specially whilst they will still be flogging a very explosive product!

 

[PhilP]

Specially whilst they will still be flogging a very explosive product!

Imagine if they let you charge both fuels at the same time on your hybrid!

 

[dunnyrail]

We now need an exploding emoji.

 

[Chris Vernell]

We now need an exploding emoji.

Or is that imploding?

 

[Paul M]

The limitation will always be the charging rate. If you think about a 72KW/Hr battery, that requires over 300 amps to charge it up in an hour and 3600 amps to charge it up in 5 minutes!

The average household supply is 100A and a petrol station might have 300A 3 phase, so that's a massive investment in electrical supply capacity to bring in super quick chargers to the mass market. Although generating capacity is probably OK, low voltage distribution - 3000V and under would need to be entirely reconfigured to allow for the required number of chargers to be installed. Imagine a garage with 12 fast charge sockets, That would require a likely supply of 3KV @ 2800A !! That's quite a big cable to be running to the filling station...

Well...they would most certainly have a supply from the networks of 11KV, so the capacity is there, I've fitted metering equipment to cover in excess of 1MW, for these. Most smaller 415V sites have a 800 or 1600a capacity at present which appear to be for around 10 points, not slow but not exactly speedy. There will be a new phrase soon known as "Charger Rage", when someone who's been waiting to charge his car for an hour gets pushed out by some *rs*e.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

The "charge in 5 minutes" batteries have been in the lab for about 10 years.

the key is being able to mass produce, with safety, at a cost that makes operation reasonable for an individual, otherwise hydrogen internal combustion shows even better promise.

Sure you will have to have "gas stations" with massively increased power available, but that is not a technological problem, again down to cost.

I have had all electric (not hybrid) cars for 7 years, the range is increasing, but recharge time is the key.

Greg

 

[GAP]

I really wasn't that interested in the electric car part of the report but more in the construction of the battery and the materials used.
I think that in time the technology will flow to other uses and possibly make the batteries safer,

It is interesting that they have started experimenting with commercial scale production so like all new technology there will be an exponential growth once commercial production starts in earnest (mobile phones anyone?).

Electric cars may be one way to go, but in Australia there is talk of using Hydrogen fuel cells with the Hydrogen being made using solar, wind or other renewable power sources to separate it from water.
The distances in Aust are still the limiting factor for the uptake of electric vehicles outside capital cities hence the interest in Hydrogen.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

They have really safe ones you can buy off the shelf right now and has been true for a few years. You can buy lithium iron phosphate (LFP) now from many places, much safer, you can drive a nail through the battery without starting a fire. They only a little more expensive than li-po.

So if you want more safety, you can get it now.

Greg

 

[Monty]

Re Hydrogen referred to by Mr GAP in post 10, this appeared in a Sydney newspaper very recently Australian firm pioneers first domestic hydrogen battery
I hope it is not all hype as it seems to be just the ticket, possibly not yet for our use but the lawnmower plug in looks promising.
Wishing and hoping!!!
Monty

 

[GAP]

Moving from Li-ion to using hydrogen I came across this earlier today
Andrew Forrest on how green steel and hydrogen offer a chance to fix our climate and our economy - ABC News
Andrew Forrest is one of the richest people in Aust and if he is looking to push hydrogen then maybe it will get more of a shove than a push.

 

[dunnyrail]

Moving from Li-ion to using hydrogen I came across this earlier today
Andrew Forrest on how green steel and hydrogen offer a chance to fix our climate and our economy - ABC News
Andrew Forrest is one of the richest people in Aust and if he is looking to push hydrogen then maybe it will get more of a shove than a push.

Hydrogen seams to be quite popular with sundry politicians and other luminaries. However it does have downsides not least some issues with storage and the fact that it takes more energy to produce, store and move around than it gives at the point of use. No doubt something that will emerge to said P’s n L’s once it has been proven after billions spent and wasted, no doubt quoting “lessons will be learnt”.

 

[PhilP]

Hydrogen seams to be quite popular with sundry politicians and other luminaries. However it does have downsides not least some issues with storage and the fact that it takes more energy to produce, store and move around than it gives at the point of use. No doubt something that will emerge to said P’s n L’s once it has been proven after billions spent and wasted, no doubt quoting “lessons will be learnt”.

So don't move it around..

Generate the hydrogen 'at home'. - presently, only really practical for immediate domestic uses, but catalytic storage is probably the way to go?

 

[Rhinochugger]

Hydrogen seams to be quite popular with sundry politicians and other luminaries. However it does have downsides not least some issues with storage and the fact that it takes more energy to produce, store and move around than it gives at the point of use. No doubt something that will emerge to said P’s n L’s once it has been proven after billions spent and wasted, no doubt quoting “lessons will be learnt”.

There are a few European trains running on Hydrogen tech

 

[dunnyrail]

There are a few European trains running on Hydrogen tech

Indeed there are, we may be getting them soon (well relatively the way that things go oh so slowly on the Railway) probably running in the Middlesborough Area that has use for the stuff, creates and has storage for it. Local services may be running in the area based on a depot near the supply so that makes some sense. However it is not the all singing dancing stuff that some think, I am sure that there will be places where it will be of use but and a big but will the costs be justifiable going forward or will battery storage be more logical with station stops giving short boosts? Many many questions to be answered indeed and the clock is ticking.

 

[Rhinochugger]

Indeed there are, we may be getting them soon (well relatively the way that things go oh so slowly on the Railway) probably running in the Middlesborough Area that has use for the stuff, creates and has storage for it. Local services may be running in the area based on a depot near the supply so that makes some sense. However it is not the all singing dancing stuff that some think, I am sure that there will be places where it will be of use but and a big but will the costs be justifiable going forward or will battery storage be more logical with station stops giving short boosts? Many many questions to be answered indeed and the clock is ticking.

I don't think there's a silver bullet answer - it'll be a combination of energy strategies.

The problem with batteries is the extent to which the planet is being raped of precious metals, and then how to dispose of them

Nuclear still has to be in the equation - although not for small transport; probably OK for ships.

In the meantime, increased efficiency of petrol and diesel engines may mean that there is potentially greater longevity for fossil fuels

But, the clock has always been ticking, since the days of Noah, and before.

 

[dunnyrail]

I don't think there's a silver bullet answer - it'll be a combination of energy strategies.

Indeed not, and yes many answers.

The problem with batteries is the extent to which the planet is being raped of precious metals, and then how to dispose of them

That is so, I gather that there are possibilities in Cornwall with some metals, but recyclable has to be the way to design batteries moving forwards.

Nuclear still has to be in the equation - although not for small transport; probably OK for ships.

Oh dear Somalian Pirates? Hm probably not.

In the meantime, increased efficiency of petrol and diesel engines may mean that there is potentially greater longevity for fossil fuels

Hm not if you look at the plans, but things can and do change not always for the better. I suspect reducing demand may bring to play the refining of oil as a cost that can no longer be justified thus forestalling some of the decisions. All down to economics at the end of the day.

But, the clock has always been ticking, since the days of Noah, and before.

 

[PhilP]

There is always a plant-based diet, and we generate our own methane?