Navigators

DRG11

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Hello All,

I currently have 3 Massoth Navigators, all #8134501, which can/and are used wireless and Im looking at getting another navigator.

As the new ones are all 2.4gh these are no use to me unless I also change the 3 I have over, so does anybody know if the Piko Navigator #35017 can be used with the Massoth system without any changes being made ?.

If not does anybody know if the Massoth Navigator #8134501 is still available anywhere ?,

Thankyou all for any information.
 

dunnyrail

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Ok my pal recently bought a new RC 2.4 navi for his line, the controller base station is an older one dated from around 2009/10 and the 2.4 navi would not talk to it at all. In fact the insides of the navi are very different to the older ones so I guess you will need to source a good condition old one. He is still looking.
 

PhilP

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Ok my pal recently bought a new RC 2.4 navi for his line, the controller base station is an older one dated from around 2009/10 and the 2.4 navi would not talk to it at all. In fact the insides of the navi are very different to the older ones so I guess you will need to source a good condition old one. He is still looking.
?
Well unless he bought a 2.4g receiver (as well) it wouldn't, would it.

I have an older working Navigator here, but the display has failed.
But even if it was working, I would only sell with the receiver. - This would help offset the cost of a replacement 2.4g receiver and Navigator.

PhilP
 

AlanL

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The newer 2.4 Ghz will work along side the older 433Mhz system.

You would have to purchase a 2.4Ghz receiver with a 2.4Ghz Navigator

You would plug in both receivers into the Central Station but you need to change one of the receivers id from the factory default of dip switch 3 from off to ON. It's that simple but the instructions make it look hard!

One of our club members has the newer 2.4Ghz system and wanted to use his own navigators on the club layout that uses the 433Mhz system that is how we know that it works.

Massoth PDF instruction page attatched.

Alan
 

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Diesel2000

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The newer 2.4 Ghz will work along side the older 433Mhz system.

You would have to purchase a 2.4Ghz receiver with a 2.4Ghz Navigator

You would plug in both receivers into the Central Station but you need to change one of the receivers id from the factory default of dip switch 3 from off to ON. It's that simple but the instructions make it look hard!

One of our club members has the newer 2.4Ghz system and wanted to use his own navigators on the club layout that uses the 433Mhz system that is how we know that it works.

Massoth PDF instruction page attatched.

Alan
This is correct, both the older FM receivers can be used alongside the newer 2.4Ghz receivers on the same CS. It'll cost an extra $100+ for the 2.4Ghz receiver, but thats really the only path forward without replacing the other older FM transmitters, which is $200+.

The Piko system is exactly the same as Massoth - Massoth makes all the Piko NAVs and Receivers.
 

Tanker man

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I understand that to get the above to work, you need to have all components up to the latest software, central station, receivers and old Navigators
Dave
 

dunnyrail

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?
Well unless he bought a 2.4g receiver (as well) it wouldn't, would it.

I have an older working Navigator here, but the display has failed.
But even if it was working, I would only sell with the receiver. - This would help offset the cost of a replacement 2.4g receiver and Navigator.

PhilP
Yeabut he never knew about the 2.4ghz upgrade, to be honest I knew about it but only cos I read it in here. He already had 3 Navis and just needed another, last I heard he was still in phone communication with the supplier of his additional Navi where the offer was a new replacement RC sender to fit. When I looked into the thing I deduced however that won’t work cos the guts incorporate it in the new 2.4ghz navis.
 

dunnyrail

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I understand that to get the above to work, you need to have all components up to the latest software, central station, receivers and old Navigators
Dave
That can be a real trauma, I had my Dimax upgraded to new software (pre 2.4ghz) some years back and it failed to load or work, neither could the version be back graded. After very long phone calls by the supplier to Germany the only option was to send the Dimax back to Germany for a ‘software’ fix. Cue 3 months of no DCC and my March towards a battery dead rail setup in the garden. The Massoth kit is now in the loft and will remain at the level of software when the upgrade was attempted. No more software upgrades for me.
 

DRG11

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Thankyou for the replies so can the Piko navigators be used with the Massoth system (NOT 2.4gh) ?

I really dont want to go down the roads of using both old and new Massoth systems so it seems look for another Massoth Navigator or change over to the New 2.4 system, ahhhhhh
 

Diesel2000

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Thankyou for the replies so can the Piko navigators be used with the Massoth system (NOT 2.4gh) ?

I really dont want to go down the roads of using both old and new Massoth systems so it seems look for another Massoth Navigator or change over to the New 2.4 system, ahhhhhh
Only old Piko NAVs would work. New ones are also 2.4ghz.
 

dunnyrail

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For future use how do you see the difference between 2.4 GHz and the old RC frequency, hopefully a sticker for those that may be looking for a second hand pre 2.4Ghz job?

I ask this remembering that LGB (clever them) labelled all the P with a P sticker that was then and now is still helpful.
 

AlanL

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I understand that to get the above to work, you need to have all components up to the latest software, central station, receivers and old Navigators
Dave
Are you sure about that?

When Massoth launched the 2.4Ghz system they offered an upgrade service to convert the old system to the new radio frequency for a modest charge. There was no mention of having to update the software on the Central Station.

Quote from Massoth 29th June 2019 -
-
For the launch of the new 2.4GHz radio control system, Massoth offers a very special introductory offer: An exchange campaign for all first (1.) and second (2.) generation navigators. It does not matter which version or make you turn in.

This is how it works! You send us your Navigator in advance (as soon as the new Navigator is available). In exchange (this means that the sent in hand controller remains with Massoth) you receive the new Navigator 2.4GHz (#8134801) at the preferential price of 199€ plus shipping costs. Prepayment required before shippment. The offer is valid only until 30. September of this year. An offer you can hardly refuse!

As I said earlier, I have run the new system on my ageing Central Station along side the older radio system

Alan.
 

dunnyrail

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Are you sure about that?

When Massoth launched the 2.4Ghz system they offered an upgrade service to convert the old system to the new radio frequency for a modest charge. There was no mention of having to update the software on the Central Station.

Quote from Massoth 29th June 2019 -
-
For the launch of the new 2.4GHz radio control system, Massoth offers a very special introductory offer: An exchange campaign for all first (1.) and second (2.) generation navigators. It does not matter which version or make you turn in.

This is how it works! You send us your Navigator in advance (as soon as the new Navigator is available). In exchange (this means that the sent in hand controller remains with Massoth) you receive the new Navigator 2.4GHz (#8134801) at the preferential price of 199€ plus shipping costs. Prepayment required before shippment. The offer is valid only until 30. September of this year. An offer you can hardly refuse!

As I said earlier, I have run the new system on my ageing Central Station along side the older radio system

Alan.
With 5 Navi’s that was an offer I could very easily refuse.
 

PhilP

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With 5 Navi’s that was an offer I could very easily refuse.
The offer was to convert One Navigator, and also supply a new receiver to connect to your CS.

They offer a 'bare board' transmitter, which I assume (tech phone support presently closed) is to retro-fit into existing Navigators? - Though I don't know how far back (Navigator models) these will fit.

PhilP
All a little academic, as that offer was in 2019.
 

PhilP

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To the OP :
I would look out for someone selling a 433MHz receiver and Navigator. - You get the extra Nav you want, and a spare receiver, which is a single point of failure.

I also do not know for how long Massoth will support / have stock of 433MHz components? If the change was 2019,then five-years continued support, would end 2024.

PhilP
 

Diesel2000

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Massoth's change from the old FM to 2.4Ghz wireless has been a real pain for a lot of users. The initial 2.4ghz implementation had connection issues for some people (me in particular) where NAVs would just be lost. Some of that was faulty hardware and a new wireless transmitter fixed it. The 2021 2.0 revision introduced new issues whereby each NAV could only pair with 1 receiver and could no longer be paired to another system without reinstalling the firmware. This is a huge problem for clubs and club operations. The 2022 2.1 revision appears to have addressed that limitation and the original connection issues, but at the cost of over 2 years time.

Then there are folks like yourselves who already had several NAVs and the cost to update from FM to 2.4ghz is substantial. With the retirement of FM parts are no longer available and you essentially have a dead system if you are still using it. Its really unfortunate and I'm not sure how many people have actually benefitted from the move to 2.4ghz, Massoth included.
 
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PhilP

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To be fair to Massoth :
I think it was a regulatory change to frequency allocations?

True, there have been problems, and things could have been managed better.

However, the 'railway show' problems, of loss of control, and too many sets of equipment in a small area, should be a thing of the past?

PhilP
 

Tanker man

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Where is ‘Muns’ when you really need him????
Dave
 

andyspencer

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To the OP :
I would look out for someone selling a 433MHz receiver and Navigator. - You get the extra Nav you want, and a spare receiver, which is a single point of failure.

I also do not know for how long Massoth will support / have stock of 433MHz components? If the change was 2019,then five-years continued support, would end 2024.

PhilP
Whilst i was at Massoth HQ last year, we asked questions relating to the old 433 stuff. They have no more parts to supply.
Its also worth noting, the current production Navs have the 2.4g all onboard. This means the board doesn't have the 8pin socket like on earlier versions did for plugging in the seperate receiver board. GRS did have some Navs that you can plug in receiver boards as a special order, but they have no stock of the 433 transmitter board.
 

dunnyrail

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I picked up 5 second hand copies of Gartenbahn Profi at the WVR gala last week. In issues 2 and 4 2022 there was an article linking 433 and 2.4Ghz systems via LocoNet and XpressNet via a Tams Master Control, I do not read German so cannot comment how it was all done, however I can understand the simple diagram. The Massoth system was shown as the 433 plus Lenz on the XpressNet one, but with 2.4 systems shown as Tams, iTrain, Roco, TCS and Uhlenbrock but sadly not the Massoth. I wonder if there is a route hers for a tech savy bod to look at?

I have noted what AlanL AlanL says in post #4.