More thoughts on Radio control

[tramcar trev]

Is this the correct section for this???
More thoughts on Radio control….
I really do have to take more Stillnox, I wake up in the middle of the night with these ideas. This one lets me use 1 transmitter to control 2 trams ( or if you could find a cheap 3 channel all proportional channel Tx then this would work with that as well)

What if I could get 27 MHz RC transmitters and receivers very very cheap? If say I could get a 2 channel brand new 27 MHz transmitter for $16 and a whole pile of receivers with crystals all round to match for $10 each and ESC’s for $8.61 ea…. And given that unless you’re Ross at best I can control 2 trams at once I could set up the receivers so that one of each channel could give me speed control over one tram? There would be a separate Rx on each tram and the ESC would be either on Ch1 or Ch 2.
With me so far? Also remember that all I am after is really control over speed, reversing is manual as is swinging the trolley pole…

So I could control 2 trams that corresponded to either of the 2 channels on the Tx. Each joystick on the TX would have underneath it written the numbers of the trams that channel could control. It would mean that trams would sit in the sidings and would not respond until the Rx was switched on.

Alternately I could at that price buy 6 Tx enough to control 12 trams at 1 per channel.
Now this all appears too simple for me so there must be some reason why it can’t be done. Remember each Rx would have a mating crystal for the Tx; each Rx would be switched on to activate the tram. And yes I would have to supply 6v for the Rx, easily enough via an L7806 regulator….

There is also an RxESC combo available but it’s not as cheap…
Why am I bothering you may ask, I have the keyfob thing running well…. I know I can control 2 trams at once with the key fobs, one in each hand but it’s the button pushing and response time that’s grinding me a bit, with a spring loaded joystick I have a dead man’s handle built in…. I'd use the Deltang unit but by the time I land it here its expensive and you also have to switch between the train your controlling.

But there must be some reason this can’t work because if it did everyone else would be doing it…..
Some of you will get the jist of what I'm blithering about and some of you will be able to answer the question "is this going to work?"

 

[tramcar trev]

One thought; the length of the 27MHz antenna... Though I only need a range of 10 metres tops I guess it could be wound around under the tram.....

 

[Tony Walsham]

Trev.
With respect, forget 27 Mhz.
There is a reason why 27 MHz stuff is ultra cheap or free nowadays. 27 MHz is VERY susceptible to RFI causing the motors to "glitch". Commonly know as "The Rusty Bolt Effect. They can be made to work by proper motor"noise" suppression, but are usually not worth the trouble.
2.4 GHz eliminates all the problems and is well worth any extra cost.

 

[tramcar trev]

I well remember 27MHz from my days modelling ships. Interference was a big issue then.... Only problem with 2.4ghz is that its one Tx for every Rx. I don't think you can bind more than 1 Rx to at TX? The 27Mhz was going to allow me to control 2 from one.... I can get 2.4ghz for about the same price as the 27Mhz too...
If I go down the 2.4 ghz road I'd end up with a house full of Tx's...
Remember I'm driving trams and for realism I really want to be able to run at least 2 at once to get the "ambience"....

 

[maxi-model]

I thought you could conrtol/bind upto 10 different models on a Spectrum DX6 2.4 ghz TX. OK, you can only really control one model at a time.

However I have set up my Accucraft L&B Lyn live steamer to work on the same control stick as my battery powered Exe (left). They only require 1 servo each to control and I have them bound to the same transmitter address but plugged each speed controller/reverser(and regulator) into different functions on their respective TX's. I operate the stick in the diagonal plane to control both at the same time when double heading. Still got one stick to spare too.
Max.

 

[Tony Walsham]

Hi Trev.
As long as the RX's can be bound to a TX as long as they are the same brand or type eg DSM2, you can bind as many RX's to one TX as you wish.

The DX61 has a 10 x model memory which is ideal for setting up multiple live steam locos which often have different servo settings from each other.
You only ever need one of the memories for battery R/C locos. The problem is finding TX's that use knobs for the extra channels after the 4 x basic sticks.
Have a look at the Hobby King 6 channel system. You can use the ch # 5 & Ch 6 knobs on the top of the TX to control two RX's at the same time.

 

[tramcar trev]

So how about these. Looks like I could control 4 trams, 2 per joystick, with a Rx and ESC in each tram maybe channels 5 & 6 could be used to turn on lights or smoke?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-4GHz-4...ontrolled_Vehicles&hash=item5af41dab95&_uhb=1
or;
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/FS-CT6B-...ontrolled_Vehicles&hash=item53fcb36737&_uhb=1
I have asked if they can supply extra Tx's...
All I have to remember is what tram is on what joystick, and that for me is I assure you very difficult mental gymnastics BUT it would be a practical solution...
But then the hobby King one is only $23; http://hobbyking.com.au/hobbyking/s..._4Ghz_4Ch_Tx_Rx_V2_Mode_2_.html?strSearch=4ch and they sell Rx to suit for this viz: http://hobbyking.com.au/hobbyking/s..._2_4Ghz_Receiver_6Ch_V1.html?strSearch=HK-T6A $9.88
so for each tram I'm going to need the Rx and an ESC; http://hobbyking.com.au/hobbyking/store/__9090__Turnigy_20A_BRUSHED_ESC.html $4.95
Around $15 per tram... Now this is looking good. Next time I visit Nowra I'll swing by and see what is the big GO.
Then I'd have 6 assorted Key fob controllers up for sale. Not a thing wrong with them as long as you put a "flywheel diode" in the circuit across the out put. The only problem with them is response time and in the tramway with "denser" traffic than on a railway they don't always stop the tram behind from ramming the tram in front....
While we are at it here is how to make a 6v supply to run the Rx (I will retain the large 200000Mf caps as anti "gitter" supply to the Rx only) protection); https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gvQjwMrQ9k

 

[Madman]

"I wake up in the middle of the night with these ideas"

It's part of older age Trev. I resemble your pain. Or maybe it's a good thing. Don't know yet.

 

[ge_rik]

My only observation, Trev, is that with this ESC you would need an extra reversing switch to run backwards as well as forwards. You could use a channel and make a servo controlled switch (see GregH's website) or do it manually on each tram.

Rik

 

[Dtsteam]

or you can save a channel and go for a cheapo reversing ESC. These are only 8v but thats enough for stately progress on the flat. I've 2 of these on seperate channels and separate receivers of a hobbyking transmitter thingy. I would however consider Ross's comments - you get what you pay for to some extent.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RC-20A-Br...781?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3f2287f3dd

 

[tramcar trev]

I thought you could conrtol/bind upto 10 different models on a Spectrum DX6 2.4 ghz TX. OK, you can only really control one model at a time.

However I have set up my Accucraft L&B Lyn live steamer to work on the same control stick as my battery powered Exe (left). They only require 1 servo each to control and I have them bound to the same transmitter address but plugged each speed controller/reverser(and regulator) into different functions on their respective TX's. I operate the stick in the diagonal plane to control both at the same time when double heading. Still got one stick to spare too.
Max.

Ok Max I think you are doing what I want to do. Ok so to get this clear you have a separate Rx in each loco, one loco is on channel 1; on the Rx in the other is on say Ch 2 (it may be on 4 or 3 depending on how the joysticks are configured). Both Rx are "bound" to the one TX. so that on the one joystick, up/down controls one loco, left/right controls the other loco and diagonally controls both at once.
Sorry I'm an old fart I just have to be positive about this as it "flies' directly in opposition to what the guy at my local RC shoppe told me. He said that with 2.4gHz I could only run one Rx per Tx and I would need a separate Tx/Rx/ESC for each tram (maybe he was thinking he could sell me 6 of each and at his prices I would have been sent bankrupt).

 

[tramcar trev]

My only observation, Trev, is that with this ESC you would need an extra reversing switch to run backwards as well as forwards. You could use a channel and make a servo controlled switch (see GregH's website) or do it manually on each tram.

Rik

Rik, as I have to swing the trolley poles to reverse ( backpoleing in G scale mate is very dangerous, extensive damage to the overhead can result) I also have a manual reverse DPDT switch. I will replace these with a DPDT centre off switch. This will allow me to isolate a tram so it can sit in the car sidings or where ever with its pole up yet not respond to the R/C until it is switched on. Its all very nice to have 4 trams on 2 joysticks but controlling them is impractical, but having them "On the roster" and awaiting the flip of a switch is very desirable.

I think a lot of model tramways fall down in that only 1/2 tram/s can be run at once and if you want realism they have to be able to be run together and play "chasings" i.e. 1 stops; the trams following run up behind and stop, the first one moves of and then progressively the others follow on. For me independent control seems to be the only way to go. R/c seems to be the most practical way to get the best "Motorman experience". DCC would give me a raft of additional features but I don't think it allows independent control such as I want plus the cost makes that a non starter.

 

[tramcar trev]

"I wake up in the middle of the night with these ideas"

It's part of older age Trev. I resemble your pain. Or maybe it's a good thing. Don't know yet.

I know, its disturbing however when you can't remember what you had for breakfast yet you can remember with crystal clarity things and memories from your childhood...

 

[maxi-model]

Ok so to get this clear you have a separate Rx in each loco, one loco is on channel 1; on the Rx in the other is on say Ch 2 (it may be on 4 or 3 depending on how the joysticks are configured). Both Rx are "bound" to the one TX. so that on the one joystick, up/down controls one loco, left/right controls the other loco and diagonally controls both at once.

Essentially correct. I can only speak for the Spectrum DX6 (other versions and makes are available). Alternately depending on which channel on the respective RX's you plugged your speed controller/servo you could use separate sticks (but you would have to add a centre return spring to one). One RX will not cancel out the other when binding to the same address on the TX. They still retain their separate controlled functions. You could probably actuate some "momentary" functions on a sound cards in the separate vehicles this way from the TX.

This method, although using one RX only, was used on Roundhouse VoR locos. One joystick controlled regulator/reverser, working in the way you described above and the other the whistle/draincocks either independently or together.

I'm sure Tony Walsham can give you a more expert opinion on the full possibilities of what functionality you can get from this type of set-up.

Max.

 

[Tony Walsham]

Thanks Max.
Yes, to do it properly, it would be desirable to remove the ratchet and add a spring to the throttle stick to make it work like the elevator stick.
It does get confusing to have two Forwards - Backwards sticks that work differently.

 

[tramcar trev]

Thanks chaps for the advice... I'm wondering about a R/C "switch" that can turn on /off lighting etc.... I found some but they are only for 6V.... There are also receiver/esc combinations but they are only for 7.2 V...
In any event this sounds the way to go.....

 

[tramcar trev]

Thanks Max.
Yes, to do it properly, it would be desirable to remove the ratchet and add a spring to the throttle stick to make it work like the elevator stick.
It does get confusing to have two Forwards - Backwards sticks that work differently.

The HK one has the ability to be programmed via PC and from what I read you can swap functions between sticks etc...
If I was feeling really bold and experimentious I'd be thinking along the lines of putting the thing in a box and extending the wireing, replacing the joysticks with just the potentiometers with knobs, on/off switch etc on the front..... so on a 6 channel set up there would be 6 labled knobs... It could be a nice brass bound Huon Pine box that looked like something out of the V&A museum, then let some Chinaman see it and reverse engineer it8|8|... As the TX is only $29 ( for 6 channel) its cheap enough to try that with....
Ok calm down - my ideas can get out of hand....

 

[Tony Walsham]

The big problem with taking the pots out of the case and putting them in a different box is that you will no longer have any spring loading on the sticks to make them self centering. Which, with your multiple locos being controlled, would be vital for an emergency stop.

BTW, I make an R/C switch with two .1 amp transistor outputs. I also make a DPDT relay that when connected to the switch does what you want. Max load is 1 amp but could be upped to 2 amps easily enough. Unfortunately I cannot make them as cheaply as the Chinese made stuff.

 

[The Devonian]

Trev.
With respect, forget 27 Mhz.
There is a reason why 27 MHz stuff is ultra cheap or free nowadays. 27 MHz is VERY susceptible to RFI causing the motors to "glitch". Commonly know as "The Rusty Bolt Effect. They can be made to work by proper motor"noise" suppression, but are usually not worth the trouble.
2.4 GHz eliminates all the problems and is well worth any extra cost.

I don't disagree with your comments about 2.4Ghz. Tony, but I have to say I have not noticed any interference to my 27Mhz. TE's and I do run everyday when not raining. No CB'ers around here I guess.
However, I wish the comment about cheap or free were true. Maybe in OZ, but UK dealers that still have some of this equipment on their shelves are asking full (pre discontinuance) prices. I needed some more receivers recently to accommodate my change to battery cars. It was cheaper to import an Aristo battery car from the USA - and of course I gained another car.

 

[Tony Walsham]

27 MHz TE's working trackside generally do not suffer the RFI problems of 27 MHz R/C systems installed inside locos. Trackside and stationary makes for a much more stable environment for signal reception. The environment inside a loco means the RFI is intensified dramatically. Antenna placement can be critical and even the magnet of a speaker plays a part.
That RFI is bad enough but when you add in the interference created by the back EMF from the motors, it can upset the actual operation of the RX's and ESC's. It is possible to reduce that type of onboard interference by proper suppression of motor "noise". Not needed with 2.4 Ghz R/C.
When mounted in a stationary place beside a Railway the length of the rails themselves will help reduce that motor "noise"

2.4 GHz solves all those problems. Nothing seems to upset them. I suppose it depends on the brand of 2.4 GHz but so far all of the brands I have tried are interference free. Motor "noise" does not upset the RF although that "noise" may still cause problems with the controlling IC's. The ESC itself should have some suppression designed into it to prevent that happening.