LGB points vs 0-4-0

[Greg Elmassian]

A few comments, paralleling what has already been said:

live frogs are great for short wheelbase locos, or ones with few pickups, but powering the frog has it's own issues.
The LGB frogs with the metal inserts in the bottom of the flangeway is a workaround that has been utilized on many scales, we even have it in Marklin Z scale. Unfortunately, it depends on a "flange bearing" frog, where the wheel tread no longer rides on the rails at the frog, but the wheel flange is the contact point. This lifting of the wheel off the rails and then riding on the flange and then going clonk back to the rail head is not "smooth", and has various negative factors, if you have a loco without a sprung suspension, lifting a wheel may lift the other wheels on that side and break contact, also it depends on the flange on the wheel, all your locos will want the same flange depth, and this is rare between brands.

Greg

 

[dutchelm]

One problem found with R1 points is the plastic frog is too high. It lifts the loco & if the other wheel has a tyre the loco stops due to lack of electric.
Cure - 1 File the plastic flat, 2 replace the tyre wheel with a plain wheel, 3 connect a wagon behind with extra pickups.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Are the plastic "rails" higher than the metal rails?

We had that issue with Aristo WR turnouts (10' diameter) and I milled mind down in situ with a router with the bit even the the base, so as the base was on the rails, and the frog stuck up, the frog top was trimmed to flush with the rails, once set up, took only seconds to do.

But that reduced the depth of the flangeways so had to deepen them to compensate.

Greg

 

[dutchelm]

On some badly made points the plastic frog is big enough to lift the loco. A flat file to bring it down level & then the edge of the file to deepen the flangeway.

 

[Edgar]

That was on Train Line Points.

I’m wrong about something at least times a day.

 

[Jasper]

I’m wrong about something at least times a day.

Human like the rest of us.

 

[Edgar]

Thank you for your thoughts and taking time to comment. I had already figured for the added expense and using R5’s on the main line for a reconfigured layout I just hate when I spend extra money for something unjustified, especially if it doesn’t do what I had in mind.

 

[JimmyB]

I’m wrong about something at least times a day.

How many times a day

 

[Greg Elmassian]

That was what was wrong

 

[Edgar]

I was thinking three. Sadly my editors are only available after publication.

 

[Gavin Sowry]

Here is the benefit of having used R1 LGB for 20 years.

I use LGB R1 points exclusively. I do remember having problems, a long long time ago.
Basically, it came down to making sure the live rails have absolutely no cross level (cant) irregularities.
The 4 wheels must be in contact with the rail at all times. If there is a dip in the track, or twist, then the 4 wheels won't be in contact.
On the same side of the loco, if one wheel is insulated, or on the frog, and the other wheel is lifted off the rail, then you stop.
Thing to watch for, too, is the frog rail dipping down after the plastic frog.

If I ever have a stall, first thing I check is the level...… and I'm running an LGB O&K engine too.

 

[Edgar]

All the information concerning the fickleness of points is very interesting and I’m sure others will also find it useful. I bought the first R1 point about 25 years ago and quickly accumulated 13 of them. All my track is LGB, and except for one short oval that included two 24” straights, it was all purchased new. I bought on R3 point last year and I’m sold on the sweeping curves offered with R5. Given the right circumstances, I would be ecstatic to have a dozen more R1 points. Most of my track laying experience has been on the undulating surface of the particle board flooring in the living room. I had figured out that the transition from hard floor to rug is not the prim spot to position a switch. This past year outside with y’all has been new. And others here were definitely happy not having a 100’ of track in the floor this past holiday season. I’m guessing the question if I might regret purchasing a couple of R5 points has been answered. Thanks guys!

 

[dunnyrail]

Other thing I forgot to mention (because I have before a few times) is the possibility of loss of current to the rails that move and also the bit after the frog. The connections (some stamped) can and do break down. I hard wire all of these now in my R1’s including the bit of rail that relies on the raised brass just by where the rail slides across. Not saying it guarantees perfection but it does get rid of a possible catalogue of faults.

 

[Dan]

I have found several fixes for engines stalling on switches that may be track related. The points slide across a olated bar and I clean this with a piece of the track cleaner duiscarded worn ring. I aslo on one R1 had to solder in a copper braid (read solder wick) to keep power on the moving rail.
I beliebe the traction tire and bad rail contact caused this issue of 1 engiine stalling. Moguls run better as the tenders have power pickups as well as the engine.

 

[Jim Prior]

Here is the benefit of having used R1 LGB for 20 years.
I use LGB R1 points exclusively. I do remember having problems, a long long time ago.
Basically, it came down to making sure the live rails have absolutely no cross level (cant) irregularities.
The 4 wheels must be in contact with the rail at all times. If there is a dip in the track, or twist, then the 4 wheels won't be in contact.
On the same side of the loco, if one wheel is insulated, or on the frog, and the other wheel is lifted off the rail, then you stop.
Thing to watch for, too, is the frog rail dipping down after the plastic frog.

If I ever have a stall, first thing I check is the level...… and I'm running an LGB O&K engine too.

Gavin, thank you - this helped me identify a problem I had today.

A little 0-4-0 Marklin 99-5015 loco (LGB model 20752) passing slowly over the straight of some LGB R3 points was reliably halting as it went over the frog. While my Rugen passes over them fine.
It's taken quite a while to diagnose the problem until I read through this thread and tried various things (thanks to all contributors, I've learned quite a few things).

The points are second hand, but checking the connections over and testing electrical connectivity, everything was in order.
Eventually I noticed that as the loco went over the frog, the wheel over the short exiting rail was lifting up by about 1mm.
The points are laid (unfixed) direct on a section of paving slabs which forms a flat surface where a station will stand (no ballast yet as I'm still testing the track).

So I removed the points from the line and inspected it carefully and discovered by placing a ruler along the top of the main straight rail, the point blade, the plastic frog and the exit rail, there was a definite convex rise of the middle frog section, with the point blade, and the opposite end exit "frog" rail, both subtly but surely dipping downwards.
As the loco moved across the frog and halted it was literally balancing on 3 wheels. Pressing lightly on the lifted corner of the loco made it pivot to the diametrically opposite 3 wheels gaining power again. (Beforehand I had also checked/cleaned the loco wheels, inner wheel rim contacts and the pickup shoes in case it was a loco problem).

Laying the points on my flat workbench showed that not only was the point bent very slightly along the length, but also across the whole points width at the frog, with the underside of the outer edges of the sleepers in contact with the workbench, but the centre underneath the frog was lifted above the flat surface by about 1mm. Pressing firmly down on the points in a few places I can see the sleepers flex and the points flatten out and will I think solve the problem.

I wondered if I would be able to bend the points back into shape, but I don't want to damage them further, and also the plastic sleepers are surprisingly strong and resist any attempt to re-shape it.
Is this a common issue with LGB R3 points, maybe originally a manufacturing fault?
Or whether they have become bent with age (a bit like myself), heat or feet ?

Anyway tomorrow I'm fairly confident that rawl-plugging and screwing the points down to the slab in a couple of carefully chosen locations should sort things out.

Thanks
Jim

 

[dunnyrail]

Gavin, thank you - this helped me identify a problem I had today.

A little 0-4-0 Marklin 99-5015 loco (LGB model 20752) passing slowly over the straight of some LGB R3 points was reliably halting as it went over the frog. While my Rugen passes over them fine.
It's taken quite a while to diagnose the problem until I read through this thread and tried various things (thanks to all contributors, I've learned quite a few things).

The points are second hand, but checking the connections over and testing electrical connectivity, everything was in order.
Eventually I noticed that as the loco went over the frog, the wheel over the short exiting rail was lifting up by about 1mm.
The points are laid (unfixed) direct on a section of paving slabs which forms a flat surface where a station will stand (no ballast yet as I'm still testing the track).

So I removed the points from the line and inspected it carefully and discovered by placing a ruler along the top of the main straight rail, the point blade, the plastic frog and the exit rail, there was a definite convex rise of the middle frog section, with the point blade, and the opposite end exit "frog" rail, both subtly but surely dipping downwards.
As the loco moved across the frog and halted it was literally balancing on 3 wheels. Pressing lightly on the lifted corner of the loco made it pivot to the diametrically opposite 3 wheels gaining power again. (Beforehand I had also checked/cleaned the loco wheels, inner wheel rim contacts and the pickup shoes in case it was a loco problem).

Laying the points on my flat workbench showed that not only was the point bent very slightly along the length, but also across the whole points width at the frog, with the underside of the outer edges of the sleepers in contact with the workbench, but the centre underneath the frog was lifted above the flat surface by about 1mm. Pressing firmly down on the points in a few places I can see the sleepers flex and the points flatten out and will I think solve the problem.

I wondered if I would be able to bend the points back into shape, but I don't want to damage them further, and also the plastic sleepers are surprisingly strong and resist any attempt to re-shape it.
Is this a common issue with LGB R3 points, maybe originally a manufacturing fault?
Or whether they have become bent with age (a bit like myself), heat or feet ?

Anyway tomorrow I'm fairly confident that rawl-plugging and screwing the points down to the slab in a couple of carefully chosen locations should sort things out.

Thanks
Jim

That assumes that the slab is flat so well worth checking that with your trusty metal ruler. Also just a couple of screws depending where may be can an issue in itself. You could if placed in the middle cause bending from the central point to each side of the sleeper. A better bet is a screw to the outside of the sleeper each side of the sleeper in a couple of selected places. Round headed screws also work better as there is no underside chamfer to cause harder pull down. As ever solutions are never quite as simple as they first appear.

 

[Jim Prior]

That assumes that the slab is flat so well worth checking that with your trusty metal ruler. Also just a couple of screws depending where may be can an issue in itself. You could if placed in the middle cause bending from the central point to each side of the sleeper. A better bet is a screw to the outside of the sleeper each side of the sleeper in a couple of selected places. Round headed screws also work better as there is no underside chamfer to cause harder pull down. As ever solutions are never quite as simple as they first appear.

Thanks Dunny, I'll check that and use round heads. I'm always careful drilling and using the right type/size rawlplug for the screw, and I'll pre-drill through the sleeper so the screw is loose then tighten by hand to adjust the pull.

 

[Jim Prior]

Fixing the points down has helped the little loco run through much more smoothly.
As warned I had to be careful not to tighten too much, and also needed to use a couple of builders plastic packing slips that come in millimetre thicknesses to help the points lay correctly, eg 1mm, 2mm, 3mm, etc. So at least the loco sits solid on the track now, no rocking or tilting.

But now the loco is demonstrating the other issue people mentioned where the traction tyre wheel gets a bad connection! So i think I'll replace it with a normal driving wheel. (I've already added extra weight to this loco to help with traction).

And while doing my testing I identified a poor connection on a different set of R3 points which I had to fix (solder flexible braided wire to the point blades).

There's always something else isn't there?!

 

[dunnyrail]

Fixing the points down has helped the little loco run through much more smoothly.
As warned I had to be careful not to tighten too much, and also needed to use a couple of builders plastic packing slips that come in millimetre thicknesses to help the points lay correctly, eg 1mm, 2mm, 3mm, etc. So at least the loco sits solid on the track now, no rocking or tilting.

But now the loco is demonstrating the other issue people mentioned where the traction tyre wheel gets a bad connection! So i think I'll replace it with a normal driving wheel. (I've already added extra weight to this loco to help with traction).

And while doing my testing I identified a poor connection on a different set of R3 points which I had to fix (solder flexible braided wire to the point blades).

There's always something else isn't there?!

Long term the LGB connections including the slidy one by the blade cannot be relied on. I tend to do jumpers where all the LGB wire, slidy and screw contacts are. This does give continuity guarantee long term. But is a pain to do with a lot of typically old weathered points.

 

[ge_rik]

If you are DCC, you could try fitting power buffers. I found this helped on my less than perfectly laid trackwork.

Rik