LGB/Marklin new stock with Marklin decoder - ?problems?
- Thread starter PhilP
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AustrianNG
Director of my railway
Me three.
An apology for a control system, badly thought out.
I would imagine the volume of pre Marklin MFX LGB locos out there is around 1 in 5000 or less...........
An apology for a control system, badly thought out.
I would imagine the volume of pre Marklin MFX LGB locos out there is around 1 in 5000 or less...........
MTheStrong
Registered
Returning to the LGB 55020 chip. This was a Lenz design and used with the original MTS Central Station which controlled upto 8 chipped locos plus one analogue. The central station operated in the serial mode. When Massoth took over the Central Station and control equipment could be upgraded to parallel operation (MTS2). The Central Station could then control 22 chipped locos plus 1 analogue. I have operated MTS2 for more than 10 years without issue. During this time the few locos I owned fitted with the 55020 were upgraded to the 55021 Type 2 and the Massoth equivalent. Many of my new loco purchases came DCC ready and in most cases either the 55021 or Massoth equivalent were used. The MTS2 ran at 14 speed steps. The MTS 3 allowed programming of 28 steps and more loco addresses. As a result of this I no longer have any 55020 chipped locos and have not had any for more than 5 years. I still have a few locos still to be chipped.
With the puchase of the limited edition Kof shunter with mfx decoder and sound it became apparent that I needed to upgrade my Central Station. The main choice at the time was between Massoth and Marklin. I chose the latter primarily for the compatabilty with mfx and the fact that the CS2 had been in existence for a number of year of years, firstly as the CS1 and then more recently the CS2. It is of course a more sophisticated piece of equipment compared with the MTS2. And like many other German manufacturers, Marklin has embraced digital technology so that your railway can be controlled from a smart phone or tablet via a WLAN. In my set up I have a dedicated wireless router connected to the CS2 and have apps on both smart phones and tablets. I no longer need neither a tethered nor a dedicated wireless controller to run the railway.
I fully agree that the CS2 is not as robust as the MTS2 but many will know from experience that it was important to keep the MTS2 central station in a warm and dry environment and that damp could play havoc with its electronics.
I very much look forward to future developments in DCC and I personally like the direction that the German manufacturers are taking. I would like to draw your attention to the third article on digital control Feine Raffinessen (Fine Finesse) in the Latest issue of Der Gartenhahn profi (1/2016)
With the puchase of the limited edition Kof shunter with mfx decoder and sound it became apparent that I needed to upgrade my Central Station. The main choice at the time was between Massoth and Marklin. I chose the latter primarily for the compatabilty with mfx and the fact that the CS2 had been in existence for a number of year of years, firstly as the CS1 and then more recently the CS2. It is of course a more sophisticated piece of equipment compared with the MTS2. And like many other German manufacturers, Marklin has embraced digital technology so that your railway can be controlled from a smart phone or tablet via a WLAN. In my set up I have a dedicated wireless router connected to the CS2 and have apps on both smart phones and tablets. I no longer need neither a tethered nor a dedicated wireless controller to run the railway.
I fully agree that the CS2 is not as robust as the MTS2 but many will know from experience that it was important to keep the MTS2 central station in a warm and dry environment and that damp could play havoc with its electronics.
I very much look forward to future developments in DCC and I personally like the direction that the German manufacturers are taking. I would like to draw your attention to the third article on digital control Feine Raffinessen (Fine Finesse) in the Latest issue of Der Gartenhahn profi (1/2016)
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Lobethalbahn2
Registered
I'm currently running MTS3 indoors and have been thinking about upgrading. As issues like moisture and robustness are less of an issue for me I had been considering the CS2 as a possible upgrade option. However the more I read here, the more frustrated I become.There seems to be a lack of joined up thinking at Marklin in regards to compatibility (backwards or forwards) with the CS2 as the 28005 green Rugen loco (current catalogue) only operates on 14 speed steps. If the CS2 only allows 28 steps there seems to be a good chance of a magic smoke event. It seems to be pointless forking out upwards of A$1500 for a unit that is going to fry the board on one of my favourite locos!
I'm also looking at purchasing a 'Franzburg' (plus the 55028 decoder) and the club edition 'Spreewald' with the MFX sound chip on board, am I going to have issues running these on my MTS3 setup? Would things be improved if I use a Massoth navigator instead of the LGB 55015/55016?
I'm also looking at purchasing a 'Franzburg' (plus the 55028 decoder) and the club edition 'Spreewald' with the MFX sound chip on board, am I going to have issues running these on my MTS3 setup? Would things be improved if I use a Massoth navigator instead of the LGB 55015/55016?
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MTheStrong
Registered
The CS2 can run on 14 steps, however there is an issue running the LGB 55020 and early LGB55021 chips because of the way in which they process instructions. They were designed to operate serially, in other words if you wanted to send an instruction to F5 it sent 5 F1s, I have over simplified this however I hope that you understand the principle. The CS2 cannot receive and transmit serial instructions. Why not try your Rugens with your local LGB/Maerklin dealer? I run Massoth chipped locos with 14 steps (mainly Stainz) with no problems.
Regards
Martin
Lobethalbahn2
Registered
Thanks for clarifying that Martin. The Rugens does function in parallel on my MTS3 setup, so if the CS2 will run 14 steps it is still an option.
One of the problems of living in Australia is that my 'local' dealer is about 300km away. Mind you when I lived in Adelaide they were 1500km away - what Australian historian Geoffrey Blainey described as "The tyranny of distance".
Another problem is that most of the time Aussie dealers carry very limited stock, with premium items (read expensive) often only available to order. The consequence is that one is frequently buying from a catalogue so the feedback and opinions of members of this forum is extremely important and highly valued by we antipods.
MTheStrong
Registered
Thanks for clarifying that Martin. The Rugens does function in parallel on my MTS3 setup, so if the CS2 will run 14 steps it is still an option.
One of the problems of living in Australia is that my 'local' dealer is about 300km away. Mind you when I lived in Adelaide they were 1500km away - what Australian historian Geoffrey Blainey described as "The tyranny of distance".
Hi Michael,
I fully understand the problems with distance. My preferred dealer is in Germany fortunately I am able to visit him 2 or 3 times a year. This is not too difficult as I live in a town with a ferry link to the continent. One other useful thing to mention is that the CS2 will recognise a chip with address 3 (but not the 55020 and early 55021 for the reasons previously mentioned) without having to take any further action. I was able to run my LGB Track Cleaning Loco (address 3) fitted with the Massoth equivalent chip straight away. I also tested a couple of other locos with the same address.
I am happy with my CS2 and I particularly like the fact that when I purchase a new mfx loco it is recognised straight away and I do not have to change its address as each mfx chip has a unique identifier.
Regards
Martin
Cliff George
Registered
Well I'm confused even more now! If CS2 can run on 14 speed steps then why can it not drive engines with older decoders? Now it is true that if the CS2 does not support MTS specific serial functions then it will not be possible to operate functions in the decoder (except maybe the first one). However controlling functions and actually getting the decoder to move the engine are completely separated decoder features and therefore moving the engine on 14 speed steps should still work.
Any standard DCC system that supports 14 speed steps can get a 55020 to move even if it does not support serial functions (an example would be my Lenz system). In conclusion it is a mystery why older decoders cannot be controlled via the CS2.
MTheStrong
Registered
Hi Cliff,
My comments refer only to the LGB 55020 and early 55021 and are based on a conversation I had with Marklin in Germany. I am not aware of the technical issues for this nor have I tested the CS2 with chips other than mfx, LGB55021 later version (2+) and Massoth equivalent. Perhaps the way forward is to actually test the CS2 with other chips and see what happens.
Regards
Martin
Cliff George
Registered
Good idea Martin.
It seems to me that there is a lot of misinformation about CS2 out there.
I actually think that the bidirectional nature of mfx and the way it allocated addresses is a good feature. For example users don't have to worry about address clashes when taking locos to another mfx line. But the system must be fully backward compatible with all DCC decoders to be of any use to most current users.
AustrianNG
Director of my railway
MTS III will run an MFX equipped loco no problem.
Do your homework thoroughly and use caution when re-programming the address of each loco though.
Do your homework thoroughly and use caution when re-programming the address of each loco though.
MTheStrong
Registered
Hi Cliff,
I have just had a chat with a friend in Germany who is well versed on the CS2. In essence the CS2 is compatible with most current decoders. The exception to this are the LGB55020 and early versions of the 55021. He says that Marklin advise that they should not be used with the CS2 as there are issues with serial commands. The locos equipped with these chips will work but without any functions. The chips have to be reprogrammed to exclude MTS. He went on to say that he believed very few people in Germany were still using these chips which are more than 15 years old. The technology has moved on. There are no problems with the current Massoth produced chips. The only issue is using mfx chips with Central Stations other than CS2 mainly due to programming which is different from Massoth.
Regards
Martin
Zerogee
Clencher's Bogleman
That last sentence worries me, Martin - is he saying that you can't program an MFX decoder with anything other than a CS2?
At our recent GSS area open day at Tolleshunt Knights, KGR sold a new MFX-chipped Tm2/2 RhB tractor to a visitor who wanted just the loco address reprogrammed to something other than the default 3; a display layout using Massoth control and a Navigator offered to try to do it, but despite multiple attempts, detailed reading of the manuals (both MFX and Massoth) and a small crowd of people trying to help, many of whom knew their way around Massoth systems, they were unable to change the address as far as I'm aware.
I've not yet purchased any M/LGB loco with an MFX chip installed - I got the new Franzburg but bought an XLS-M1 for it from Muns (GRO) - and the more I read, the less I want to get any.....
Jon.
MTheStrong
Registered
Don't panic Captain Mainwaring,That last sentence worries me, Martin - is he saying that you can't program an MFX decoder with anything other than a CS2?
At our recent GSS area open day at Tolleshunt Knights, KGR sold a new MFX-chipped Tm2/2 RhB tractor to a visitor who wanted just the loco address reprogrammed to something other than the default 3; a display layout using Massoth control and a Navigator offered to try to do it, but despite multiple attempts, detailed reading of the manuals (both MFX and Massoth) and a small crowd of people trying to help, many of whom knew their way around Massoth systems, they were unable to change the address as far as I'm aware.
I've not yet purchased any M/LGB loco with an MFX chip installed - I got the new Franzburg but bought an XLS-M1 for it from Muns (GRO) - and the more I read, the less I want to get any.....
Jon.
Of course you can program an mfx decoder using a different central station from the CS2. The point I was trying to make, obviously badly, is that you have to have your wits about you especially if you have grown up programming with Massoth. There are differences and it is important to be fully conversant before programming. This issue does not arise if you have a CS2 because, as previously explained, it recognises a mfx chip straight away because of its unique identifier. To put simply you do not have to program the address. All you have to do is put the loco on the track, the CS2 does the rest (not quite everything but I hope you get my drift).
Regards
Martin
MTheStrong
Registered
Jon,
This link may be useful: https://railway.zone/post/the-marklin-central-station-2-and-decoder-programming
Please let me know if it proves to be helpful.
Regards
Martin
This link may be useful: https://railway.zone/post/the-marklin-central-station-2-and-decoder-programming
Please let me know if it proves to be helpful.
Regards
Martin
ntpntpntp
Registered
Yes I think we understand that the CS2 can do clever things with mfx chips, and that's all fine and wonderful. The concern for the majority is still that users of other perfectly decent DCC systems don't expect to encounter programming problems with a decoder that purports to be NMRA DCC compatible/compliant. Not everyone wants to junk their existing system for a CS2. This is where Maerklin are in danger of alienating folk that have been loyal LGB users in the past.
Cliff George
Registered
Thanks Martin, that confirms what I thought would be the case.
I also don't believe a previous claim on here that CS2 cannot drive MTS II and below decoders.
Sorry I'm lost on what this may mean?
Cliff George
Registered
I have a loco fitted with a factory fitted mfx decoder and can happily report no issues with programming at all on my Lenz system.
Were they trying to set a long address by any chance?
If so this is a known issue with mfx decoders and a special 'change address' feature of the Massoth system. It works without problem by just using standard CV setting and not the special Massoth feature. There is some word on the matter buried here:
https://www.gscalecentral.net/threads/digital-allegra.301747/
I must have been busy doing something else at the time!!!
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MTheStrong
Registered
I am trying to recall which CVs you have to change on the 55020 to alter the factory preset values so that it is configured as DCC and not MTS.
stockers
Trains, aircraft, models, walking, beer, travel
So taking your Marklin chipped loco to mates railways wiil now be a problem unless they also use CS2. The CS2 is basically an HO central station - perhaps HO locos do not frequent mates railways as frequently as out larger locos do.
The problem with any 'closed system' is that your mates cant play - even Apple have now had to recognise Windows.
The problem with any 'closed system' is that your mates cant play - even Apple have now had to recognise Windows.