LGB 21602 DCC compatibility with Revolution DCC

Hutch

Hutch

G Gauge, Raising Peaches, Apricots
1 Feb 2012
371
7
Southwest Oklahoma, USA
After my Sprog 3 quit I resurrected my LGB MTSII (55005P). I missed the newer DCC functions and ease of operation of current generation DCC. I purchased a Revolution DCC to use as a track-side controller to replace the MTSII set with. It works perfectly with all my engines EXCEPT for my original LGB 21602 Schoema from my original LGB MTS I (55000) DCC starter set . The 21602 has no response from the Revolution handset other than a horn response (sometimes). This Schoema currently works perfectly in analog mode.

I asked the Revolution folks if this was a known problem. Their response was to ask me if the LGB engine was 100% NMRA compatible, which is fair enough. Quite honestly I don't know if LGB serial locomotives are NMRA compatible or not.

It would be a pain to change back to the LGB I or II setups. If one of our DCC folks could answer the issue of whether that vintage of Schoema with factory DCC should run on current generation DCC I would appreciate it.

THANKS ---Hutch
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

Registered
8 Mar 2014
2,879
171
San Diego
www.elmassian.com
Probably the decoder is 14 speed steps only... also probably serial functions only, both of those are technically NMRA compliant, but I don't remember seeing the 14 speed step setting in the Revolution manual.

Greg
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
14,977
433
71
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
After my Sprog 3 quit I resurrected my LGB MTSII (55005P). I missed the newer DCC functions and ease of operation of current generation DCC. I purchased a Revolution DCC to use as a track-side controller to replace the MTSII set with. It works perfectly with all my engines EXCEPT for my original LGB 21602 Schoema from my original LGB MTS I (55000) DCC starter set . The 21602 has no response from the Revolution handset other than a horn response (sometimes). This Schoema currently works perfectly in analog mode.

I asked the Revolution folks if this was a known problem. Their response was to ask me if the LGB engine was 100% NMRA compatible, which is fair enough. Quite honestly I don't know if LGB serial locomotives are NMRA compatible or not.

It would be a pain to change back to the LGB I or II setups. If one of our DCC folks could answer the issue of whether that vintage of Schoema with factory DCC should run on current generation DCC I would appreciate it.

THANKS ---Hutch
If this is the only Loco giving you problems it may be worthwhile stripping out the existing DCC Board and fitting a more up to date Decoder.
 
Zerogee

Zerogee

Clencher's Bogleman
25 Oct 2009
16,787
186
North Essex
If this is the only Loco giving you problems it may be worthwhile stripping out the existing DCC Board and fitting a more up to date Decoder.
I would agree, if it is the green Schoema diesel (marked "Lok-1"?) that came with the very first MTS1 starter package, then it will have the very earliest type of LGB decoder - a Lenz-built 55020 probably - which may well explain the compatibility problems. It can probably easily be swapped for a Massoth L, or one of the new mXion L units from MD, or indeed any other basic single-motor decoder with a power capacity of at least 1.2 - 1.5 amps.

Jon.
 
Hutch

Hutch

G Gauge, Raising Peaches, Apricots
1 Feb 2012
371
7
Southwest Oklahoma, USA
I would agree, if it is the green Schoema diesel (marked "Lok-1"?) that came with the very first MTS1 starter package, then it will have the very earliest type of LGB decoder - a Lenz-built 55020 probably - which may well explain the compatibility problems. It can probably easily be swapped for a Massoth L, or one of the new mXion L units from MD, or indeed any other basic single-motor decoder with a power capacity of at least 1.2 - 1.5 amps.

Jon.
Yes, it's the green Schoema marked LOK-1 from the early starter MTS set. I had hoped to not add more chores to the 'to-do' list, but will put her on the list.
Thanks ---Hutch
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

Registered
8 Mar 2014
2,879
171
San Diego
www.elmassian.com
Hutch

Hutch

G Gauge, Raising Peaches, Apricots
1 Feb 2012
371
7
Southwest Oklahoma, USA
D

Dan

Registered
28 Jan 2010
228
8
Eastern MA
Not only is the Lenz 14 steps only, only CV 1-4 can be programmed!! The Massoth 55020 is much better but both did not have BEMF. 55021 does have BEMF.
 
Hutch

Hutch

G Gauge, Raising Peaches, Apricots
1 Feb 2012
371
7
Southwest Oklahoma, USA
Testing more stuff, rather slow as I'm still taking care of my wife post back surgery. I have found that my little 0-4-0 porter with the factory decoder apparently has bad final drive transistors. I can see things change in the CV side of the board, but never see output for the light, smoke, or motor drivers. I have only one more engine to test before I have the repair list finished. It has a 55021 so hopefully it's OK.

DCC is a real challenge ---Hutch
 
Hutch

Hutch

G Gauge, Raising Peaches, Apricots
1 Feb 2012
371
7
Southwest Oklahoma, USA
you did note from my linked page above that only a certain version and above supports 28 speed steps I hope... read the version back from the decoder to be sure.

Greg
Yes, am reading your references carefully and documenting things as I go. The more modern MFX decoder locomotives do all functions, engineer announcements, various noises etc. with the Revo setup.

---Hutch
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

Registered
8 Mar 2014
2,879
171
San Diego
www.elmassian.com
Testing more stuff, rather slow as I'm still taking care of my wife post back surgery. I have found that my little 0-4-0 porter with the factory decoder apparently has bad final drive transistors. I can see things change in the CV side of the board, but never see output for the light, smoke, or motor drivers. I have only one more engine to test before I have the repair list finished. It has a 55021 so hopefully it's OK.

DCC is a real challenge ---Hutch
Hutch, you replied about the modern MFX decoder, I was referring to your post quoted above about the 55021, which is only 28 speed steps if above a certain version... so I encourage you to read back the version from the CVs and see if it will be 14 ss only...

Best, Greg
 
Hutch

Hutch

G Gauge, Raising Peaches, Apricots
1 Feb 2012
371
7
Southwest Oklahoma, USA
Sorry about the mind drift. Yes I have confused 55020 with 55021. My 55020 i definitely 14 speed steps. The 55021 that am using is only 28 steps.

I really think some of my older locomotives need to join a 12 step program.

---Hutch
 
Hutch

Hutch

G Gauge, Raising Peaches, Apricots
1 Feb 2012
371
7
Southwest Oklahoma, USA
Probably the decoder is 14 speed steps only... also probably serial functions only, both of those are technically NMRA compliant, but I don't remember seeing the 14 speed step setting in the Revolution manual.

Greg
As a matter of trivia, 14 step can be set by writing directly to the CV29 register instead of using the "MENU" to set it. The decoder won't ACK the write command, but when you read it back after a power reset (10 second or more) it has changed to the new value.

---Hutch
 
Hutch

Hutch

G Gauge, Raising Peaches, Apricots
1 Feb 2012
371
7
Southwest Oklahoma, USA
Right, but can the throttle generate/send 14 ss format commands as opposed to 28/128?

I don't think it can...

Greg
Not sure if it generates the 14 speed steps, but the engine responds properly to speed, light, and horn commands now. The speed curve is a little off from when it was on the LGB 55000 Central Station, but the PWM frequency must be higher, as the engine no longer 'growls' at low speed. It isn't silent, but is less irritating to my slowly degenerating hearing.

Remember, this is being used as a central station, so it only it may only send the commands to the Lenz 99 decoder in the engine.

I am not an expert by any means, but I seem to fumbled into a solution for this engine.

---Hutch
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

Registered
8 Mar 2014
2,879
171
San Diego
www.elmassian.com
PWM frequency comes from decoder, but it might change with that setting, interesting.

Yes, the Revolution receiver indeed MUST send DCC commands... maybe those commands are close enough to work.

In any case, congratulations! If it it's broke, don't fix it huh?

Greg

edit: I re-read your posts, perhaps I misunderstand... the text implies you set 14 speed steps by writing to the decoder, but that sort of makes no sense, did you send the 28 speed step setting to the decoder? That makes more sense in terms of how it is now working.
 
Hutch

Hutch

G Gauge, Raising Peaches, Apricots
1 Feb 2012
371
7
Southwest Oklahoma, USA
PWM frequency comes from decoder, but it might change with that setting, interesting.

Yes, the Revolution receiver indeed MUST send DCC commands... maybe those commands are close enough to work.

In any case, congratulations! If it it's broke, don't fix it huh?

Greg

edit: I re-read your posts, perhaps I misunderstand... the text implies you set 14 speed steps by writing to the decoder, but that sort of makes no sense, did you send the 28 speed step setting to the decoder? That makes more sense in terms of how it is now working.
I never did communicate well with people, only dogs and machines. <GRIN>
At the user menu level, only 28 or 128 speed steps can be selected.
I changed CV29 to 4 and executed a write. Verified the write with a read-back after 10 second power reset.
The Lenz paperwork indicates that the value 4 designates: 14 speed steps, normal direction, analogue and digital, factory-programmed speed steps.

NOTE: Vintage LGB/Lenz paperwork states that the reset should be 7 seconds, but for some reason my particular decoder takes a little longer.

---Hutch
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

Registered
8 Mar 2014
2,879
171
San Diego
www.elmassian.com
Something still fishy... you did state it was a Lenz, did you ever read the mfg number and version?

If you note my pages linked earlier, the 55020 by lenz cannot have CV29 changed.... and the fact it is working tells me you are in 28 speed step mode...

My guess is you have a Massoth 55020 or newer decoder... I know you can find a 55020 manual from LGB, but note it is for the newer Massoth 55020... but still I have a hard time believing you are in 14 speed step mode.. because the THROTTLE must put out different commands too, and I have never seen a system that can "sense" the mode the decoder is in.

In any case, it is working.

I'll bet that if you put the Revolution throttle in 128 speed step mode it will still work (and give you more precise motor control)

Greg