LGB 12010 switch motor control with direction indicator

M

Miguelito

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8 Oct 2017
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Elk Grove, Ca
HELP! The newest documentation with the 12010 (made wherever) now states "may only be operated with 14 - 20 volts DC". Okie Dokie. That said, I'm trying to find a way to control the motor and, after doing so, have an indicator remain showing which way the switch points are pointing after the last throw. A DPDT center off momentary returns to center so I don't know the last thrown position. It does not seem that a DPDT momentary that remains in the last thrown position (up or down) is available? Anyone know the whereabouts of some? So, does anyone have some type of switch, circuit, etc. that operates momentarily then leaves the control bat/knob/lever/switch/light etc. in a position so I know which way the points are going from when the last time the switch was thrown? If this has been answered I apologize - I can't assemble the proper keywords to bring up the answer I'm seeking.
 
Neil Robinson

Neil Robinson

Registered
24 Oct 2009
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Does it matter?
On my line I press the dpdt center off in the direction i want the point(switch) to be set. If it was already set that way nothing changes, if it was set the "wrong" way it changes.
 
James Day

James Day

Guano Corner Rly - Runs weekly - Guano permitting
6 May 2012
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Despite what that says, they still work on half wave DC, which is what they were designed to do in the early 1980s.

If you connect a neat Ac supply to one terminal and a pair of diodes to the other ( one reversed in relation to the other) and touch each one in turn with the other Ac supply wire the point will change.

When they first appeared the instruction showed you how to convert old style 5075 switch boxes to half wave with diodes.

If you use an add on switch plugged into the rear of the point motor you can run tell tale wires back to indicator lights on your control point.

We let the public control one of our signals sometimes and this helps form part of the display they see in front of them when changing the signal.

James
 
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Gizzy

Gizzy

A gentleman, a scholar, and a railway modeller....
26 Oct 2009
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I used DCC so I have points/switch decoders that interface to the motor.

I can set specific routes, but as a test, I set route 0 for all points to the straight road, and route 9 is for the diverging road. I can select between these routes to check all points are functional before a running session.

In addition, I use the MTS PC (or Stellwerk) as my route panel, so that I can see which route is set. Here is a screen shot of my previous layout using MTS PC software....





e07576434da049b2832959ba955fc3d2.jpg
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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For people trying to save money, the capacitive discharge system allows inexpensive SPDT toggles, and the circuitry is not tough. If you want to pursue this, I'll find the lengthy thread on our Z scale forum. You can make the capacitive system pretty inexpensively.

Greg
 
James Day

James Day

Guano Corner Rly - Runs weekly - Guano permitting
6 May 2012
1,727
3
Warwickshire
For people trying to save money, the capacitive discharge system allows inexpensive SPDT toggles, and the circuitry is not tough. If you want to pursue this, I'll find the lengthy thread on our Z scale forum. You can make the capacitive system pretty inexpensively.

Greg
Interesting that LGB are describing the EPL drives as DC now. I think PIKO did that too, before they introduced their own version of the LGB 17100 reed.

Interestingly (for me at least) the EPL drive was introduced a few years after very similar LEGO point motor (For the system with grey track with metal conduits). This also featured a magnet that rotated within a coil that could be polarised.

These Lego motors were pure DC and lacked the ability to add switching of electrical circuits but they could change points and lift crossing barriers.

As they were DC they could be burned out though, which the half wave EPL drives were completely resistant too. I have had all sorts of reed failures with mine and often heard that awful jarring noise when pure AC gets through but have never broken one yet!

James
 
M

Miguelito

Registered
8 Oct 2017
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Elk Grove, Ca
For people trying to save money, the capacitive discharge system allows inexpensive SPDT toggles, and the circuitry is not tough. If you want to pursue this, I'll find the lengthy thread on our Z scale forum. You can make the capacitive system pretty inexpensively.

Greg
If you can find the thread and get it to me I will be eternally grateful. I'm building an indoor switching layout and I've used 2 3-way switches. The last direction set really becomes important to the things where intended. With the 3-ways connected to other left and rights it makes getting the route correct a challenge. I don't need the function everywhere (yard throats for sure) but it would be nice if it could be done.

Mike
 
M

Miguelito

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8 Oct 2017
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Elk Grove, Ca
Greg:

THANKS! Novice at electrical but it appears all I need is a common SPDT switch, a 1500 uf 25v capacitor, and a 7.5v DC power supply. Correct? That said, the thread applies to Roukahan turnout (motor). Will the same component parameters, as listed above, work for the LGB motor? Circuit is obviously simple enough and does what I want. No worries about being "fool proof" as no one will be flipping the switch furiously. I assume one power supply can drive any number of switch motors connected through a terminal stip to power each toggle. Thanks again.

Mike B
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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You will want a higher voltage, and perhaps a bit heftier capacitor. I'd try the higher voltage and see how reliable it is, if not enough "oomph" increase the capacitance.

elegant in it's simplicity.

Greg
 
M

Miguelito

Registered
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Elk Grove, Ca
You will want a higher voltage, and perhaps a bit heftier capacitor. I'd try the higher voltage and see how reliable it is, if not enough "oomph" increase the capacitance.

elegant in it's simplicity.

Greg
Again, THANKS!
 
M

Miguelito

Registered
8 Oct 2017
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Elk Grove, Ca
THANKS again!

Realized the voltage was low so intend to use a dedicated LGB 5003 for a test and run the voltage up to 15 or so and increase as/if necessary (15 DC seems to be a common thread to drive the12010). Any thoughts on the starting cap size? My RadioShack is gone as is the Sacramento electroncis supplier so grab-and-go testing with various sizes is no longer an option. Switches are SPDT on-on correct? EBay. That'll be my source for the caps also.

Do appreciate the swift responses. Makes working the aquisition decisions so much easier.

Mike B
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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Yeah, the switches are on-on, no center off.

On the cap size, you can see that there is a lot of cut and try. I would be wildly guessing. There's a way to calculate things, but the measurements and equipment needed is way too much. What I would do is buy a few and parallel them as you go. I'd quadruple the size the guys were using for Z scale as a SWAG (Super Wild Ass Guess), but be careful... I'd want to "sneak up" on the right value by starting too low and increasing capacitance until I just got a positive throw. That way you are ensured to not overheat the switch motor.

Greg
 
B

Bruce in NZ

16mm and G Scale outdoor
19 Apr 2011
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Auckland New Zealand
I have had (very positive) experience many years ago using a capacitor discharge circuit to power point operation. I was modelling in 4mm scale but as is obvious from the above scale is not an issue here, except perhaps in the size of capacitor. I recall the two main advantages as being (1) removing any risk of burning out the point solenoid if for example a switch became stuck or was improperly operated and (2) providing a strong positive kick to ensure reliable operation. A further advantage was that circuitry prior to the capacitor (especially the step down transformer) only needed to have low current capacity and was therefore relatively cheap. In modern terms this would also apply to the Rx which triggers the discharge, if RC was being used.

Although I was (and still am!) no electronics expert, constructing the unit was not difficult, nor was it expensive.
 
M

Miguelito

Registered
8 Oct 2017
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Elk Grove, Ca
Thanks all! Components ordered (arrival may take a bit). Results of experimentation will be posted.
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
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St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
A Proper CDU Circuit will incorporate a Cut Off before charging the Capicitor starts again thus ensuring that there is no continuous current to the Point Motor. Back in my 0 Gauge Exhibition days I used a CDU with Diode Matrix Logic to Operate varying routes, the Capacitor was in the range of nn,nnn Microfrads and took a few seconds to recover full charge. Worked well and still does though the odd Push Button Switch to set the routes used to Carbon Up and cease working. Simple matter to replace them on the Pannel even at shows. I think that only a Couple went in over 30 Exhibitions and a lot of running at home as the Layout was permanently set up in a room when not at Shows.
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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Not sure I agree with the word "proper", there are different designs, and making a simple design that is continuously charging the capacitor but at a low current rate will indeed feed this current through the switch motor IF you hold the switch on.

As long as this current is low, and well under the continuous rating of the switch motor, there is nothing "improper", it's a design tradeoff, simplicity and cost vs. more complexity and cost to do the "hard cutoff".

Decisions can be made on the tradeoffs.

Greg
 
M

Miguelito

Registered
8 Oct 2017
19
0
73
Elk Grove, Ca
Not sure I agree with the word "proper", there are different designs, and making a simple design that is continuously charging the capacitor but at a low current rate will indeed feed this current through the switch motor IF you hold the switch on.

As long as this current is low, and well under the continuous rating of the switch motor, there is nothing "improper", it's a design tradeoff, simplicity and cost vs. more complexity and cost to do the "hard cutoff".

Decisions can be made on the tradeoffs.

Greg