Greg Elmassian
Guest
And I will stand by you in complete support DON'T USE IT. Nasty for your motor, especially when decoders are so cheap.
Has anyone damaged an analog loco motor on an LGB MTS system?
- Thread starter Sammler
- Start date
Gerard
Registered
Hi Greg and ntpntpntp (waht does ntp mean??),
Thanks guys for leading me into this interesting new area of running model trains! This subject was completely new for me.
Greg i read some of your impressive website pages and bookmarked them, man what a lot of information you share with us there !
I tried to register on your website since i saw a login option, but apparently that login is not meant to be for visitors?
3xntp i agree with you advising not to use zero stretching. Better put decoders in all locos.
By the way i reading all this stuff also learned the term "consisting" from you, understanding now it means: running more locos in the same long train. I also do have the zimo MX10 system with 2 MX32 hand helds but i don't have two or more of the same locos (yet)
But i will try to put it to work on two of my locos on two parallel tracks and see how it works.
Gerard
Thanks guys for leading me into this interesting new area of running model trains! This subject was completely new for me.
Greg i read some of your impressive website pages and bookmarked them, man what a lot of information you share with us there !
I tried to register on your website since i saw a login option, but apparently that login is not meant to be for visitors?
3xntp i agree with you advising not to use zero stretching. Better put decoders in all locos.
By the way i reading all this stuff also learned the term "consisting" from you, understanding now it means: running more locos in the same long train. I also do have the zimo MX10 system with 2 MX32 hand helds but i don't have two or more of the same locos (yet)
But i will try to put it to work on two of my locos on two parallel tracks and see how it works.
Gerard
ntpntpntp
Registered
Er... it stands for Nick The Programmer
I've worked in IT all my career, and way back in the 80s my UK company had a US office in Boston, one of the staff there started using the abbreviation NTP when referring to work I was doing for them - and it stuck. I'm still with the same company (the US office is long gone 
) and still known as NTP by long-time staff.....
Greg Elmassian
Guest
Gerard, on elmassian.com home page, logins are explained:
"Note: There are some "restricted" pages on this site, personal / family only, and they use logins to see this information."
Gerard, you might want to join the Zimo forum, ZIMO-DCC groups.io Group lots of good people there....
I have extensive pages on Zimo: Zimo DCC I think there are almost 10 pages on the MX10/MX32 system...
There is a new firmware update just a few days ago...
You do not need 2 of the same locos... to test consisting, try placing on same track a few feet apart.....
greg
"Note: There are some "restricted" pages on this site, personal / family only, and they use logins to see this information."
Gerard, you might want to join the Zimo forum, ZIMO-DCC groups.io Group lots of good people there....
I have extensive pages on Zimo: Zimo DCC I think there are almost 10 pages on the MX10/MX32 system...
There is a new firmware update just a few days ago...
You do not need 2 of the same locos... to test consisting, try placing on same track a few feet apart.....
greg
Gavin Sowry
Garden Railroader and Raconteur
This has brought up a sad memory.
On an away trip, I put my Bachmann Davenport 0-4-0ST steamer on the layout, 'she'll be fine, just run on ID 0'.......... BANG! capacitor, I believe.
Someone knew how to fix it, because it was the second one in the club to do that.
On an away trip, I put my Bachmann Davenport 0-4-0ST steamer on the layout, 'she'll be fine, just run on ID 0'.......... BANG! capacitor, I believe.
Someone knew how to fix it, because it was the second one in the club to do that.
Greg Elmassian
Guest
Yeah, remove the capacitor! Sounds like putting it on DCC did that. Bachmann used to put all kinds of cheap, poorly engineered noise suppression components on the motors. In the early days of DCC this also screwed up some of the motor drive smarts.... like BEMF sensing.
I cannot remember when anyone complained that model trains interfered with their TV (now digital for the most part) or telephones (cordless phones to land lines much less prevalent)
Many things on early large scale were not rated for much more than 12-16 volts, sometimes 18. Modern DCC systems are trending towards 24.
So a non-polarized noise capacitor of marginal voltage will definitely go pop on DCC.
Greg
I cannot remember when anyone complained that model trains interfered with their TV (now digital for the most part) or telephones (cordless phones to land lines much less prevalent)
Many things on early large scale were not rated for much more than 12-16 volts, sometimes 18. Modern DCC systems are trending towards 24.
So a non-polarized noise capacitor of marginal voltage will definitely go pop on DCC.
Greg
Always wondered about that. I was in IT but in my last years was predominantly a Tester so perhaps my handle could be JDTTJDTT.Er... it stands for Nick The Programmer
Greg - I'm surprised you didn't state your opinion about running LGB or other brand Analog locomotives on DCC current.........you're usually quick to give advice! Since you're an electrical engineer, you have a valid perspective on this question. As I recall your past responses to similar questions on several large scale forums has been, NOT recommended due to likely harm to the motor. As we know, the DCC decoders output PWM current to motors, not DC or DCC current. I'm not an electrical engineer, but exposing a DC designed motor to AC or DCC doesn't seem a good thing to do, and the DC motor is talking back with that nasty hum noise too when using operating it on DCC. Maybe smoking tobacco is a good analogy, it damages your health but won't kill you immediately.Gerard, you have revived an old thread, and there was some good data in the thread and some wrong data.
Address 0 means "pulse stretching" and it was very "rough" on motors, and did cause heating and physical noise.
I would suggest you read up on the subject to get good data. It has NOTHING to do with addressing, but the radical change in the DCC waveform.
Zero Stretching
Zero Stretching is an optional feature of Digital Command Control (DCC) that enables the operation of a locomotive on DCC-powered rails without the required Multifunction Decoder. This feature is known as ‘Zero Bit Stretching’ in the DCC specifications and is informally referred to as ‘Address 00’.dccwiki.com
Greg
Greg Elmassian
Guest
Well, I could go into detail, but there are 2 questions here... the effects of zero stretching, which is an archaic practice and basically universally not recommended, or leaving an analog loco on a DCC track.
While I understand how AC on a motor winding will cause heat, and can also help demagnetize the field magnet, it's just "don't do it"...
But PWM on motors does indeed cause more heating than "analog" DC applied. since the motor does not stop and start in exact match with the pulses, that energy (trying to stop and start the motor instanteanously) has to go somewhere, mostly as heat.
With the locos I have run, and I have very few LGB, they are tough enough to handle this heat. Notice the internal fan and cooling slots in Aristo motors.
Since PWM has been used for a long time, and 1/2 wave AC "pulse power", it's a rare motor that cannot handle this. Even the really cheap R/C toys use PWM.
Greg
While I understand how AC on a motor winding will cause heat, and can also help demagnetize the field magnet, it's just "don't do it"...
But PWM on motors does indeed cause more heating than "analog" DC applied. since the motor does not stop and start in exact match with the pulses, that energy (trying to stop and start the motor instanteanously) has to go somewhere, mostly as heat.
With the locos I have run, and I have very few LGB, they are tough enough to handle this heat. Notice the internal fan and cooling slots in Aristo motors.
Since PWM has been used for a long time, and 1/2 wave AC "pulse power", it's a rare motor that cannot handle this. Even the really cheap R/C toys use PWM.
Greg
I think I would be more bothered about damaging an expensive central Station, though I have no grounds whatsoever for this worry having had a Bachmann Shay (as Loco 0) running on a friends line all day back in LGB P equipment days. We knew no better then,
Sammler - Just disconnect your DCC Command Station from your layout and connect a DC Analog Power Supply and Throttle to it and then run your non-DCC locomotives on it. Remove any DCC locomotives from the layout before operating the DC system. This will be your best solution until you convert the rest of your locomotives to DCC. If you have any LGB or Massoth DCC track switch decoders connected to your layout, exposing them to DC current will not harm them.....Massoth confirmed the DC current will not harm them.
Greg Elmassian
Guest
Tom, the thread is about a specific case... you could just as well tell the guy to use pink paint, for all it has to do with the thread.
Dunny: your system has output short protection, why would you worry about this hurting the central station?
I think we have gotten off the topic... the post is about using the "analog mode", i.e. address 0, and will it burn up a motor?
From what I have seen, years ago, it depends on the motor and the length of train you are pulling.
It will indeed heat the motor more.
We are not talking about sitting a non chipped loco down on the tracks in "normal DCC mode".....
In "address 0 mode" the loco runs noisy, the motor heats more, and speed control is usually poor.
Some motors have been known to overheat, and people claim damage has happened.
as I said earlier: don't do it, or drop a few $$ for a cheap decoder if you really want to run it.
Greg
Dunny: your system has output short protection, why would you worry about this hurting the central station?
I think we have gotten off the topic... the post is about using the "analog mode", i.e. address 0, and will it burn up a motor?
From what I have seen, years ago, it depends on the motor and the length of train you are pulling.
It will indeed heat the motor more.
We are not talking about sitting a non chipped loco down on the tracks in "normal DCC mode".....
In "address 0 mode" the loco runs noisy, the motor heats more, and speed control is usually poor.
Some motors have been known to overheat, and people claim damage has happened.
as I said earlier: don't do it, or drop a few $$ for a cheap decoder if you really want to run it.
Greg