Going to try first time battery using Aristo revolution system, any advice on the batterie

[beavercreek]

For a winter project, having seen Tony's Aristo Revolution equiped battery locos (very impressive), I want to set up a couple of heavy powerful locos (for traction on my inclines) so that I do not have to worry about winter track-powered problems.

I have got hold of an Aristo Revolution handset and three Revo chips so I can do three locos or a couple of pieces of rolling stock and one loco.
The control system is not the problem but I would love some advice on what batteries would be best for power, length of charge and also size. They will have to cope with dragging the loco and cars up the slope on my layout as well as lights, maybe smoke and also sound.

I will also make the locos/rollingstock switchable between track and battery power as the revo chips are wireless control and take both froms of power.

Any advice, tips or insight from you gurus out there would be greatfully received

 

[Tony]

you know your welcome to borrow my Mikado and take it apart to see how thats been done Mike.... The simplist and safest way to switch between track and batts is to have wires from each to a pair of plugs and a matching socket into the electrics hiden in the tender you then just decide which one to plug in...... for charging you then need a charger with the same socket to connect to the battery......this also removes any chance of charging whilst connected to track or motor

Tony

 

[WKDOR]

Very good advice on Del's site is to lash up some battery cells and try it to see what you need, before committing to battery packs. I've done that with all my battery installs and it would probably be extra important for your gradients.

Do these heavy locos include the stock cars, Mike?

I don't do Li-Pos (probably would if starting over) but for NiMH I have standardised (both with lights, big sound, but no smoke) on:

14.4v Single motor Annie - Connie (overcharges to 16v)
18.6v Dual motor Aristo Mallet and Croco (overcharges to 20v)

All with Sub-C battery packs.

The most difficult thing I found is the current/run time, which is also a classic price/performance trade. Over time I've gravitated towards 3700 mAh as a standard and I'm happy with that.

Let us know what you decide.

Mike

 

[beavercreek]

you know your welcome to borrow my Mikado and take it apart to see how thats been done Mike.... The simplist and safest way to switch between track and batts is to have wires from each to a pair of plugs and a matching socket into the electrics hiden in the tender you then just decide which one to plug in...... for charging you then need a charger with the same socket to connect to the battery......this also removes any chance of charging whilst connected to track or motor

Tony

Hi Tony thanks for the input..
I feel okay on the wiring as I have many sound cards in my present locos with back-up batteries which have to be charged either from the card itself (via power from the track) or from a plug-in chargers but not both at the same time! To this end I have isolating charging sockets.
The switching from battery to track power as the main power supply for a loco is easy to do but .........the info I am after is on the best possible efficiency/power/cahrge time/size battery pack that is available. ie lithium or nimh? I know that one must be very careful with what charger you use with lithium batteries..that is if you do not want to see half of your workshop disappear!

 

[Tony]

my mikado is fitted with a 21.6v NiMh from this place http://www.strikalite.co.uk/prodcat_type/32/ALL/0/16mm\Gauge1\G_scale_Model_Train_Battery_Packs.html it will cost £100 for charger and battery but ive not had to recharge my Mikado yet and ive use it quite a bit over the last few weeks sound and lights on all the time smoke on most of the time pulling reasonable rakes of wagons i dont know if this place is competive its just the stuff that was fitted already

Tony

 

[beavercreek]

Thank you for your info Mike

I will probably err towards Lith-ion and the 18+v scenario as they are going to have to work hard. Now to find the best sources and sizing/weight etc.......any ideas out there?...

 

[beavercreek]

my mikado is fitted with a 21.6v NiMh from this place http://www.strikalite.co.uk/prodcat_type/32/ALL/0/16mm\Gauge1\G_scale_Model_Train_Battery_Packs.html it will cost £100 for charger and battery but ive not had to recharge my Mikado yet and ive use it quite a bit over the last few weeks sound and lights on all the time smoke on most of the time pulling reasonable rakes of wagons i dont know if this place is competive its just the stuff that was fitted already

Tony

That does sound very good Tony...maybe better costwise/performance than Lith-ion or Lith-polymer!

 

[dunnyrail]

Hello Mr Beever, you may like to look at my posting re Battery kit:-

http://www.gscalecentral.net/tm?m=70543&high=Battery+power < Link To http://www.gscalecentral....543&high=Battery+power

The last post gives details of the Battery that I used. I have also used a similar setup in an LGB 2095 double motored loco. the battery sits in the Battery Compartment quite nicely and adds plenty of extra weight. The loco has pulled pretty much everything put behind it and runs continuously in excess of 3 hours. Hope this helps a bit.
JonD

 

[beavercreek]

Thanks Jon
I will be using a phoenix or soundtraxx or Qsi or Massoth sound card with large speaker. This shouldn't impinge too much on the battery but it is good to have power 'in reserve'.
I will probably go your or Tony's route. The first loco will be a USA Trains GP30 with batteries inboard if possible. The next loco will be a steamer with trailing battery car (and also a trailing motorised stock car with on board battery that will be controlled by the one revo chip (if this is possible!).

 

[CoggesRailway]

Hi Mike. I have a NiMH in one alco and Li On in the other two.
I wouldn't rush to li on. Remember weight is your friend with a beefy loco, and so far my NiMh loco has performed incredibly. If you remember the Alco (g. blue and white) pulling the 35 wagon train at the open day- that is running a 14.4v NiMh. I am no expert but volts is not the issue it is the mah value that matters for hard work - I am pretty sure high speed is not your thing. I tested that alco on a 120 axle train with old fashioned non LED lights and I got bored at 4.5 hours!!!!!!!!!

The battery pack is 12 3700 mah 1.2v NiMH cell packs x 2 that discharge in paralell. That was over kill as you can see. I guess the LGB motors in the Alco draw less than your stuff - but there is two and they were under serious load.

I have three locos that are lithium based which are also very good - but there does need to be care with charging. I have had a minor fire that was LITERALLY like a welders torch in intensity and if it had not occured on the garage floor it could have been bad.... This was actually a LIPO helicopted battery but the chemistry is the same....

 

[CoggesRailway]

Just saw your post. Honestly big diesel = big NiMH I reckon.
My battery and charger described above was c.£70 and is effectively a 14.4v 7200 mah hours.... in a GP30 you could pull a house down all day with that on board....

 

[beavercreek]

Yeah Ian, as I said in an earlier post in this thread, the charging of L-ions route can be hazardous for your health!
I will probably go for 18.6 v or 22v NiMh battery packs in the GP30 as it will have soound, lights and the option of smoke.
In the case of the steamer with the trailing car and the motorised stock car I will plump for the 18.6v L-ion variety. The problem with the trailing car is that although it is supplying power it will also be a big weight for the loco to haul up the slope. the motorised car will help but it will mean short trains when on battery! It will mean investing in two distinct chargers for the different battery types...or else :

 

[beavercreek]

Just saw your post. Honestly big diesel = big NiMH I reckon.
My battery and charger described above was c.£70 and is effectively a 14.4v 7200 mah hours.... in a GP30 you could pull a house down all day with that on board....

Where did you get yours Ian? Tony has given a good source for his ones. Strikalite

 

[CoggesRailway]

http://www.howesmodels.co.uk/RadioControl/viewProducts.php?SubCatID=261
I used these. If you take them apart you find the cells tabs so you don't need a cell soldering gizmos to build whatever pack you want. The charge was 15 if i remember rightly.

however get a decent charger for the lithium and it will also do the NiMH and this will save you money...
Specifically the alco has three of these http://www.howesmodels.co.uk/RadioControl/viewProduct.php?ProdID=7282 for about £50 i think. I split one pack and added four more cells to the other two. I have a mod friend who services and changes the batteries in, beleive it or not, IED sensors and other sensor kit in Afghanistan which use the same cells. I asked him about my arrangement and he said it was fine although over 100s of discharges and charges it might not be optimum. However this would equate to more time than a model train is EVER going to run anyway.

The MOD did move to lion, but they had some ignite during shipping. The entire container went over the side as they were concerned if the lot got going it would literally go through the bottom of the ship! I thought this sounded fanciful, but he swears blind that's what the story was at bastion!

 

[beavercreek]

Ian
If you get 2 X 7.2 v 3600mah packs. I presume that you connect the two packs in series to make the 14.4v?

 

[Tony]

Mike youve got me thinking ive just looked the bat pack in the Mikado is 18 x enelong aa cells the cost on that site is £67 i cant find them in the uk but enelong cells from china are £13 for 8 inc free shipping which makes a total cost of £30 if you want to wire them up yourself
Not found the charger yet but must be cheaper than £30 that they charge
Tony

 

[CoggesRailway]

Ian
If you get 2 X 7.2 v 3600mah packs. I presume that you connect the two packs in series to make the 14.4v?

Yes although I think I got 3 9.6v packs and split the third to create two 14.4v. I need a calculator:'(

This is becasue if you get a nimh 4 from howes they are 3600 as opposed to 3000 mah.

I built this monster pack as I wanted to pull very long trains for ages if I wanted, and a diesel like the alco can be made to accomadate it with use of a razor saw. and the weight is great too....
PS my bash on a bachmann 45 tonner - the green shunter at the open day runs a 7.2v 3000mah of the same make and again has very good performance and run time.

 

[CoggesRailway]

before i go to sleep i would emphaise that i am glad i got a quality charger. the original howes cheap one works but it just has one light and goes green when finished - and cannot do lithium.
i then bought a "proper one" which can charge big batteries of lion lipo nicd nimh and others too i think even the car! It also balances lithium cells by monitoring them indvidually. When you connect it to a battery it intergoates its health and tells you the stats on a screen on the front. You can also discharge under control and other things I don't understand.... As I have gone battery largely I think this was a good investment and means i needn't have bought the nimh charger.... night.

 

[beavercreek]

When you connect it to a battery it intergoates its health and tells you the stats on a screen on the front.

Good point Ian but I must get one of those ...for my own health...attach it up and it will interrogate my own body cells.........probably show that they are flat!
Night mate

 

[gregh]

The control system is not the problem but I would love some advice on what batteries would be best for power, length of charge and also size. They will have to cope with dragging the loco and cars up the slope on my layout as well as lights, maybe smoke and also sound.

AS GKDOR said, you have to do some measurements before you can decide on battery size.
You don't need a battery for this, track power will do. Choose the train you want to run and adjust the controller for the voltage (ie speed) you will want. This decides the max battery voltage you'll need. If using NiMH divide this by 1.2 to get the number of cells. You can use more if you want. I've never needed more than 10 cells for any of my locos, because I run slowly. Lithium cells are nominal 3.7V/cell.

Then with the controller at that voltage, try to read an 'average current. You'll need a 10 amp range on your meter. The current will vary a bit whether you're going up or down hill, so just try and estimate an average for your whole run. Do this with all your accessories on. (If you really want smoke, you're going to need a monster battery!)
So now you have to decide how long you want to run for. Multilpy the current by the hours you want, so now you've got ampere-hours.
Now if the current is less than an amp or so, AA size NiMH cells will do. Above that you'd better go to C or D size (very expensive) or Lithium.
If you decide on NiMH, multiply the ampere-hours you got above by about 1.3 to 1.5. NiMH cells are not very efficient at higher currents, so you need extra capacity. Then see what standard capacity cells you can get.

You might like to look at my web pages here for more info:
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/satr/battery.htm

If you decide on Lithium, your motor controller MUST have an undervoltage feature that turns off when the voltage gets too low. Discharging a Lithium typs below 2.7V /cell destroys it. Doesn't cause a fire or anything catastrophic, just won't work any more.
I buy my batteries by mail from Hobbyking, both NiMH and LiPo types. Hobbyking has a German warehouse, so you should be able to get from there. My LiPo charger also came from them (about $30 + a plugpack power supply + postage). Prices seem much cheaper than those mentioned by other respondants in the Forum. Their website tells you the weight and sizes.

these are links for the Aussie warehouse - you'll have to search for the DE one.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/..._3000mAh_3S_20C_Lipo_Pack_USA_Warehouse_.html < Link To http://www.hobbyking.com/...ck_USA_Warehouse_.html

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/...2200mah_Low_Self_Discharge_ready_to_use_.html < Link To http://www.hobbyking.com/...rge_ready_to_use_.html

Overall I'd suggest LiPo for your large loads. The one-off cost of the charger is worth it.