Fixing external track

Madman

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When I started in our great hobby of garden railroading, I laid my track on concrete block slabs and screwed it down. I had read how most others laid track on ballast allowing it to float. At first, I didn't think that was a good idea. Only a few years into my garden railway did I finally remove the blocks and ballasted the track. Each year, It needs some tweaking, but it's not that much of a PITA.
 

Gerard

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My track is on 1m long 5 cm thickness and 15 cm wide flat concrete slabs with on row of bricks on their side at both sides of the slabs all layd in a snad bed of 20 x 20 cm.
When there is any vertical movement i correct it simply by using a vertical garden shovel and move the sand under the slab that rises as result. At the backside of the shovel i fill the gap with new sand.
If any root is lifting the slab i dug it free under the slab and bricks and cut it vertically using a strong virbrating Fine Saw machine that cuts through the root very well. No more horrible slamming axes into the soil and hitting a non stable root without any succes.

Gerard
 

Gerard

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No i bought the slabs in a garden center , they do not have any reinforment steel or alike.
You do not need any reinforcement as long as they will not get very wet with reference to possible freezing damage.
There will be no freezing damage when you lay them in a dry sand layer that drains the rain water off.
 

trammayo

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1 meter long is pretty darn long for an unreinforced cement slab, normally does not go over half that distance for garden paving stones here in the US.
So not everything is big in America? They could be wall copings or path edgings:)
 
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The point is that concrete slabs that size would have metal reinforcement here. If there really is no reinforcement in a meter long piece of concrete it would be deemed flimsy here and it would break easily in any continent.
 

JimmyB

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The point is that concrete slabs that size would have metal reinforcement here. If there really is no reinforcement in a meter long piece of concrete it would be deemed flimsy here and it would break easily in any continent.
Greg our "drive slabs" are 600 X 600mm (24" X 24") or 600 X 900mm (24" X 36") and these do NOT have re-bar or other steel reinforcement just heavy ballast, and again the 900mm and 1200mm edging slabs are without reinforcement. Maybe the US just over engineers ;)
 

Paul M

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Greg our "drive slabs" are 600 X 600mm (24" X 24") or 600 X 900mm (24" X 36") and these do NOT have re-bar or other steel reinforcement just heavy ballast, and again the 900mm and 1200mm edging slabs are without reinforcement. Maybe the US just over engineers ;)
Depends on the density and thickness of the materials used
 

Madman

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Greg our "drive slabs" are 600 X 600mm (24" X 24") or 600 X 900mm (24" X 36") and these do NOT have re-bar or other steel reinforcement just heavy ballast, and again the 900mm and 1200mm edging slabs are without reinforcement. Maybe the US just over engineers ;)
But a slab a meter long and only inches wide would surely be flimsy just handling it.
 
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Thanks Dan, glad you did read that it was a meter long... that is pretty darn long for no reinforcement is my point. I will guarantee you if you supported just the ends and stood in the middle it would break if it indeed had no reinforcement. That would seem pretty fragile to even transport.

Anyway, just an observation, we get to about 24 x 24 here and usually 2 inches thick (about the same thickness here as there).

Not trying to take anything away from what I am sure is a great looking, well functioning layout with a workable base for track.

Greg
 

JimmyB

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I will guarantee you if you supported just the ends and stood in the middle it would break if it indeed had no reinforcement. That would seem pretty fragile to even transport.

Greg
Don’t recall anybody say it was just supported at the ends, and I suspect you could be correct.
 
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That was just an example of strength, I guess I have to explain more... normally of COURSE you would support the slab evenly underneath... of COURSE.

But to be reliable, in case it is not evenly supported, it would be common sense IN THE USA to be able to be strong enough to take the weight of a person at least with the midspan unsupported.

The example was to show a level of strength to feel confident you did not have a marginal situation, since these slabs are used for cars as you say.

I think it would be ok to say we would judge this to be underengineered for use in a driveway.

I cannot see why you are arguing about this, but go ahead. Over here we have burrowing animals that might create a hollow under such a slab, and then walking the rails could crack a slab. Been there done that. Read any USA article about concrete roadbed and everyone puts some minimal rebar or mesh inside. Just the way we do things.

Greg
 

trammayo

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Strength of concrete (without any reinforcement) is reliant on the way it is cast. Pavements/sidewalks (in the UK at least) are generally built of 2x3 or 2x2 slabs (flags we called them) and the concrete is vibrated and pressed. During my working life I purchased many a thousand of them for the local authority I worked for. Of course, they would not like a wagon running over them!
 
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Uhh, concrete is strong in compression, not tension. Bending force puts tension on the underside of where you are standing. You won't find any bridges with concrete in tension without metal inside.

Smaller "castings" sometimes use short lengths of carbon fiber, but that is to stop cracking, not overall ability to work in tension.

Also, your sidewalks probably have different aggregate size, etc.
 

korm kormsen

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i feel paved over...
what is there to quote about sidewalks?
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Gerard

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Gentleman,

I like to bring some practical strength calculations into this discussion about the necessity of reinforcement.
The concrete slabs i am talking about are made for the garden to make a nice straight end of a lawn or a pavement made of smaller square bricks. In that situation the slab is put into the soil with the long side vertical up, and often positioned completely below zero soil level.
This results in a pretty good lateral support, generated by the internal friction of the soil layers both sides next to the slab.
Any load vertical on the slab can be coped with very well, since the height of the bending profile now is 15 cm, which is 3 times larger than the slab thickness of 5 cm. We can explain this as follows:
The maximum tension stress S at the lowest point of a square beam is S=M/W.
M is the bending moment caused by the load on top of the beam and W is the resistance moment of the vertical cross section of the beam.
The resisting moment of a square beam can be calculated as W=1/6*B*H^2 with H=height of the beam and B=width of the beam.
So by putting the slab vertical the resistance moment W against a vertical load becomes a factor 3^2=9 times higher.
When such a slab is vertically loaded the result will most probably be rather a larger penetration into the ground instead of breaking the slab.

Now back to our train track bed: i use a flat position of the slab in a sand bed of course sand. This sand bed has a high angle of internal friction, so there will allways be a good spread of the load when the slab is loaded with a vertical load at one point, worst case the middle point of the length.
In my garden the max load on the slabs is most likely the load of my body 90 kg . that load can be easily taken by the slab in the sand.

Some extra remarks about steel reinforement:
The steel reinforcement bars/wires must be as far as possible down in the pulling stress zone of the slab since there are the highest pulling stresses. The pulling stress zone lies under the middle height of the beam. The compression zone is above this middle height. So this give us only 2,5 cm height with stress tensions to position the reinforcement. Moreover there must be at least a cover of lets say about 1 cm of concrete in order to prevent rusting of the bars. Since one slab can be used in two flat positions there must be steel bars at both sides of the slab. This makes a reinforced slab quite expensive !
Concrete slabs 100x15x5 cm without steel bars are very cheap, you can find them on internet for about €2,- each. So even if one breaks during rough transport its no problem.

Gerard
 
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Right, we have that reinforcement situation here, most people experience it in their driveway, poured as a single slab, 3-4 inches thick, with the reinforcement biased to the lower surface. This is what most people have seen. Most metal reinforcement is coated nowadays, so rust is less of a problem, since water can eventually permeate most concrete, given enough time and pressure.

Reading your 3rd sentence, this is normally put into the ground with the 15 cm side vertical? the 5cm side is parallel to the ground? Of course that is much stronger than laying flat.
 

Gerard

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In the reinforced concrete construction the reinforcement is preferably not coated since only non coated steel will have a firm joint with the concrete mass. Even a bit of rust before applying the steel bars is preferrable since that creates a better grip!
Rust inside the concrete is prohibited by the non acid environment with low Ph value. Even the micro cracks in the concrete pulling stress zone,necessary to enhance a tensile stress in the reinforcement rods, does not has a negative rust effect!
 
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An interesting discussion. Here, they make the decision based on the amount of water likely to get into the concrete. If dry, uncoated as you say.

Changes of water in the concrete, they change to epoxy coated.. This is normally only in foundations.

You really know your stuff!

Greg