External Wiring Help Please

[alex.j.tame]

Hi everyone,

Hoping that someone can be a little committal in providing what cabling size is suggested for external wiring. I have made the decision to go fully DCC, yet to purchase. I have trawled through blogs/forums, both UK & US, but nobody seems to provide specifics to cabling gauges to use. And before I go and buy loads of reels of cable, that may be unsuitable or unnecessary, I am hoping that someone can shed some light (no pun). Below is my latest track layout. This is still in track laying foundation laying, so there is still scope for wiring routing. The hope is to also have DCC controlled points, and building LEDs eventually. Is this forward planning, oh dear!

Anyone and everyone's comments will be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Al

 

[stockers]

Welcome to the form. that looks an interesting plan.

I assume you mean the low voltage stuff for your railway. I use mains wiring. The twin core plus earth. Lighting circuit wiring is 1mm or 1.5mm thick (the wire core). Possibly over the top but eminently suitable and tough. Get a large reel (50 or 100m) from a local electrical wholesaler - much cheaper than the DIY sheds.
Its called "1mm twin and earth" - they will know exactly what you mean.
My main feed from the DCC central station (indoors in the dry) is 2.5mm cable (plug sockets cable) but that was partly because I had some laying around and it was to the now obsolete colours.
A common alternative is speaker cable/bell wire but this can be quite thin, both in wire terms and insulation.

To be pedantic, the size of the wire is measured as its sectional area rather than its diameter - but at 1mm that wont make much difference.

 

[duncan1_9_8_4]

Whilst i shall not try to give electrical advice (it would be wrong and possibly dangerous) i love the track plan though!

 

[dutchelm]

Most lines are wired up with what is available at the time. If you have to buy cable 1mm is good for 10 amps & you are not likely to exceed that on your line. I would prefer to use a flexible cable. 1mm single is available from companies such as Rapid Electronics. Being flexible it is easier to hide. Get 2 colours for the inside & outside rails & feed in at several points (the more the better).
Don't use brown as birds think it is a worm & pull it up.
My only comment on your track plan as it seems very complicated for a garden layout. Keep it simple!

 

[stevelewis]

A quick reply I have several yeasr experience in Garden railways ( Since '78) and in the early days wiring was a bit of a challenge, no real info, no internet!!

My recomendation for external wiring is what is commonly called speaker cable, the cable which was used to connect up domestic loudspeakers around the home, now probably a thing of the past!!
But it is still avaiable in may hardware and DIY stores.
My most lengthy garden line lasted just over 12 years and the cable installed at the beginnin was still OK when we moved.
If you are considering Digital consider the PIKO system it is made for PIKO by Massoth and is extremely versatile the complete system costs around £550 ( that includes radio contril)

Incidentallyy I may be selling a Piko system soon as I am taking another direction in the Hobby ( No its not live steam

 

[Neil Robinson]

A common alternative is speaker cable/bell wire but this can be quite thin, both in wire terms and insulation.

In theory speaker wire should be cheaper as it's lower voltage than mains therefore it needs less insulation and has two conductors rather than the three of twin and earth mains cable.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/180699351424?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

However mains cable is used in much greater quantities which affects the price.

A major consideration is voltage drop. Many people assume that say,"5 amp", cable is just that. However in an extreme case if the cable run is long enough to give a 20V drop at 5A a mains powered device would probably still work O.K. with the voltage dropping from 240 to 220. With a model railway controller with only about 20V to start with it's a different story!

In our scale the best conductor is the rail as its area is greater than any practical cable. One cable feed to the nearest point should suffice provided all your rail joints are,and remain, clean and tight.

 

[PhilP]

I would build-out your run from the shed, and the (sort-of) outer loop.. You can add the points for the rest at this time if funds are available. - You HAVE costed your proposed layout, haven't you??
This would allow you to get 'something' running fairly quickly, thus sustaining interest, and allowing you to add in stages. - You can then potter, whilst a train wanders round, without too much attention.

If going DCC:
I would buy 100m of 1.5mm twin core flex, with a black outer sheath. Run this from the shed/garage in cheap garden hose. Cut the hose to length-ish to the first point. Bring out a loop of the cable (18" to 24") and then into another length of 'hose to the next point.. Continue all the way round the line. This gives you a separate feed to all the points, and any other DCC controlled items. you can also feed this from a separate power booster if you end up running multiple trains. It means you could make a part of the layout switchable to analogue DC, and still control the points from the DCC system.
Personally, I would run a second cable, probably fed from a (decent quality) 19V DC laptop supply. - These tend to be rated at around 3.15Amps.. Plenty for lighting, and other accessories around the layout. bring this cable into suitable enclosures (fancy name for plastic boxes!) and you can distribute to various buildings from there.. These boxes can also contain local voltage regulation, or other bits of electronic wizardry.

 

[alex.j.tame]

Guys, thanks so much for this information so far

Maybe my layout may be a bit ambitious but as everyone seems to say "it's my layout" and we all make mistakes by trial and error!

I'll probably go with 1.5mm ring with drops to the track every 3m or so. Sound ok?

For the points and other sundry electric lighting what kit would I need to consider and will the 1.5mm cable be too much?

Further comments will still be appreciated.

Thanks again fellas

Al

 

[stevelewis]

The way I do my wiring may sound crude but I do not bother with a ring of cable, I nevr have done I have used DCC for around 20 years on many scales I 'dabble' in

As far as the garden is concerned I usually have just 2 feeds from the central staion one nearest and 1 furthest point away i then take feeds from the track itself by inserting the bared cable ends into the rail joiners of 2 track sections then connecting this lead's other end similarly perhaps 2 or 3 metres away so that eventually the whole layout is fed as a belt & braces system every few metres.

As stated above the best conductor is the track!

 

[ntpntpntp]

I relied on the rail as conductor for my DCC line and it was fine, as Neil & Steve say it's typically the largest section and hence best conductor provided the joints are well maintained, with just one feed from the command station. I added a couple of switched isolating sections in the station area in case I wanted to run the layout on plain DC, this was also useful when setting a loco on the track to avoid accidentally shorting out the entire system.

I wired my point decoders to a separate bus of low voltage garden lighting wire (effectively thick speaker cable) rather than connecting the decoders locally direct to the track. This gave me the option of disconnecting the track from DCC power, whilst retaining DCC control for the pointwork. 99% of the time the bus was simply connected to the track outputs at the command station.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

What is missing from this discussion is the expectations of current drawn, type of rail, type of rail joiners distance from the DCC booster to the feed points.

This information needs to be considered first, as well as other loads on the rails (point motors, lighting, etc.)

I run a layout with about 800 feet of stainless steel track, and I needed 10 gauge wire to make it right for the long trains I run with multiple locos.

Greg

 

[stockers]

Thats all very well Greg, but most of us dont have a clue what the resistance of our rails, loiners etc is, let alone a damp loose joiner!

 

[Hutch]

Just to complicate the issue, here is one of the websites I use for voltage drop calculations:
http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html

Have fun, It isn't rocket science...

 

[dunnyrail]

My suggestion as always is to make your layout into 3 or 4 sections. Have a feed to each end of each section via section switches. Yes with DCC they will always be on. But if you get a Short, you can turn them all off. Reset the System then switch on each section one at a time. When the Short reappears, you will have an idea where to search. Believe me on a bigish complex layout it saves time. Plus feeding the sections at each end gives dividends in power supply with less chance of voltage drop. Finally if you can afford it, use Track Clamps. Massoth make suitable ones for LGB, Piko, Trainline, Aristo Track which all use pretty comparable Rail. The added advantage of the clamps is that it makes your Trcak pretty well unmoveable. Highly advantageous when Trains are running as Track that is just held with Fishplates can move quite a bit, plus it also helps with security.

Good luck with your project.
JonD

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Stockers, I did not say you need to know the resistance of your joiners... please re-read my post.

What TYPE... for example:
1. slip on like LGB
2. secured with screws like Aristo / USAT
3. rail clamps like Hillman / Split Jaw.

These components can make a lot of difference.

Without knowing the parameters, I'm not going to give an opinion of feeder size, spacing of feeders, feeder wire vs. bus wire, loop, bus, or star wiring configuration.

More description of what the OP wants to use, and what he expects from the completed setup is needed.

Track and power are the foundation to your railroad, and I've seen so many people do it wrong and then get frustrated and have a poorly operating layout.

Greg

 

[trammayo]

I seem to remember (from the dim and distant past) that any electrical feeders or wiring, have to take account of the expected current useage AND the length of the feeder run. The greater the cross section of wire - measured in SWG or MM - the lesser the problem of Potential Drop (curent loss through resistance).

Therefor, put in decent feeders - that's half the battle over with. I have used various methods (and types) of wiring. Outside I use hose pipe to protect the wire - and a tip here is to thread the wire/cable through the hose before you lay it in situ. It is quite quite hard to push cable through hosepipes that are not straight (and virtually impossible on long runs).

On my trailer layout, I use de-oxygenated (is that the right description?) speaker cable of a decent cross section. Outside I use 1.5mm, two or three core, lighting cable. The difference between the oxygen free speaker wire and conventional flexible cables is that, unless the latter is "tinned" the copper exposed will oxidise - both on the exposed connection and part way into the the insulated section.

To overcome the oxidisation problem, use petroleum jelly (Vaseline). It's cheap and cheerful but it is a proffessional solution to the ingress of moisture and oxidisation.

That's my two penn'orth!

 

[PaulRhB]

Having a decent cable supply to back up the rail joints is well worth it, and yes every 3m sounds good. Putting the graphite paste Lgb sell in the fishplates plus the supply should mean any loss of power is easy and quick to solve.
Connecting to the rail can be done in several ways too, Lgb connectors with your new heavier wire, soldered on with a gas powered iron with the plastic sleepers say in a shallow water tray or tin the wire and trap it between the rail and plastic web, with a dab of graphite paste, using a screwdriver to get it in have all worked well on layouts I know.

 

[dunnyrail]

Trammayo is right about protecting the wire. However I have been using Small Electrical Trunking. The advantage of this is that it is easy to get the wires in in the first place, plus revisions and additions are easily taken care of as well. You can even disguise it with Small Saw Marks and Pint to look like Concrete Trunking as used by the real thing, I have done this on my line.

With DCC once you have set it up there should be little need to change things. But on an emerging layout like yours, as you build and learn changes are likely to come thick and fast for a while.

It is a very clever man that gets everything planned from day 1 for a new layout.
JonD

 

[alex.j.tame]

Guys, thanks very much for all of views and comments. Some of the questions asked. Have all track purchased for my design. will be using rail clamps from grsuk.com dcc still to be purchased but will probably go for Roco z21 system with a crest 10a booster. Locomotive will probably American style USAT or similar as my theme will be semi industrial.

Just hope the weather starts to improve soon as I am get itchy fingers and want to get the enthusiasm going again.

On a side note, and not looking for any sympathy, jUst had 4 teeth out so feeling sorry for myself, and need a distraction

Am also trying to get a website up for pictorial updates.

Everybody have a good weekend running, building or whatever.

Al

 

[David1226]

On a side note, and not looking for any sympathy, jUst had 4 teeth out so feeling sorry for myself, and need a distraction

Ah, a distraction as opposed to an extraction. Having teeth out is no problem, you only need to worry when the dentist says that your teeth are fine but your gums have got to come out.

They say you are getting old when Policemen start to look young, well for me it's dentists. My latest dentist looks about 15, but boy is he good, Very much new school and high tech, painless and proficient.

David