ESU sound for my Accucraft K27?
- Thread starter tac foley
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tac foley
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I'd like to do justice to my high-end model, rather than a toot-toot and a chuff that sounds like a striking match on an empty box. But I don't have DCC on our main track. analogue sounds are fine, so long as I can synchronise them with wheel rotation with something like a Hall-effect device. The Sierra system I had was great - static sounds, bell, toot-toot for forward and toot-toot-toot for reverse, coal shovelling, magnetically-synchronised and very realistic chuffs - all that stuff, then they announced that the system was incompatible with any r/c speed controller, and I was stymied.
Tac, don't know who told you that, and which generation of Phoenix they were talking about..
Chuff from wheel-sensors (or DC voltage level) and more R/C triggered sounds, than you can probably arrange triggers for..
We possibly need to have a conversation?
PhilP
tac foley
Registered
Sierra, with the flat acid battery - no more batteries.
tac foley
Registered
Phil - this is what my loco sounds like after Pete Spoerer installed his sound system in it. He told me that the TRX r/c system was incompatible with the Sierra sound...
Does whatever you are suggesting sound better than this? It's not half as good as the old Sierra system was.
ALL analogue.
Does whatever you are suggesting sound better than this? It's not half as good as the old Sierra system was.
ALL analogue.
Well, that is a very old MLS card, so the latest would be better than that, for a start..
But the Phoenix would be even better..
See what you think?
PhilP
maxi-model
UK/US/ROW steam narrow gauge railways 1:1
Tac - Is your problem/need due only to a non functioning "stay alive" battery ? Can you not use an NiMh or LiOn instead ?
I run all my Bachmann and Accucraft Fn3 locos nowadays with battery power and rc control rather than track. In that configuration the Sierra's "stay alive" functions can be fed by the battery used for traction. I have 4 locos with old Sierras set up that way.
My other locos use/will use ESU DCC cards, again using batteries for traction. The ESU sound library has a sound file to match just about every loco that those 2 major Fn3 makers have produced - no generics. The sound is superb, including out of synch engines for the 2-6-6-2.
A DCC card, by default, includes the ESC as well as sound functions, this helps explain the price premium over high end sound only cards. A DCC card can run in an RC configuration with the correct TX and RX, I use the Fosworks kit here. The fun bit is you can control up to 12 functions on the ESU card in this set up from the TX. Literally you can have the flashing lights, bells and whistles, plus a few other things going on.
Not a track powered option I know but I hope this helps. There are some Bachman Fn3 locos that use a Tsunami DCC card that can operate in a DC environment. They do require higher input voltages to run and have some programmed sounds that operate like those in the Sierra. All my OO & 009 DCC sound equipped locos can operate the same way. Max
I run all my Bachmann and Accucraft Fn3 locos nowadays with battery power and rc control rather than track. In that configuration the Sierra's "stay alive" functions can be fed by the battery used for traction. I have 4 locos with old Sierras set up that way.
My other locos use/will use ESU DCC cards, again using batteries for traction. The ESU sound library has a sound file to match just about every loco that those 2 major Fn3 makers have produced - no generics. The sound is superb, including out of synch engines for the 2-6-6-2.
A DCC card, by default, includes the ESC as well as sound functions, this helps explain the price premium over high end sound only cards. A DCC card can run in an RC configuration with the correct TX and RX, I use the Fosworks kit here. The fun bit is you can control up to 12 functions on the ESU card in this set up from the TX. Literally you can have the flashing lights, bells and whistles, plus a few other things going on.
Not a track powered option I know but I hope this helps. There are some Bachman Fn3 locos that use a Tsunami DCC card that can operate in a DC environment. They do require higher input voltages to run and have some programmed sounds that operate like those in the Sierra. All my OO & 009 DCC sound equipped locos can operate the same way. Max
Indeed it does sound and look like an older MLS card, you can alter the sounds and call individual sounds rather than just 3 using a TV Remote card (I bought mine from Fosworks as it is the correct kind). Look at some of
ge_rik
vids on MLS cards. Swopping out to a newer MLS sound card not difficult, but if you are unsure Phil sounds like he can help or so could I being pretty close to where you live.
ge_rik
vids on MLS cards. Swopping out to a newer MLS sound card not difficult, but if you are unsure Phil sounds like he can help or so could I being pretty close to where you live.
Having re-read this thread, and watched the video:
This was an early install, with what we did (and knew) then..
Nowadays, we would fit a better, alternative to a lead-acid battery, but running on analogue track-power, you would still need to run at a reasonable speed, for quite some time, to charge the battery. - This is needed to run the sound system when the loco is stationary, and track-power is 'zero'.
(explanation for anyone new to this).
If you are battery RC, then you have power available all the time the loco is 'on', so lights can stay on whilst stationary, and the sound system still works.
You could keep your existing radio gear, and just swap-out the older MLS for a Phoenix card.
Alternatively, you could have an ESU decoder, and either a limited number of triggered sounds, or swap the whole radio installation, to something that will drive the ESU decoder with pseudo DCC.
PhilP
This was an early install, with what we did (and knew) then..
Nowadays, we would fit a better, alternative to a lead-acid battery, but running on analogue track-power, you would still need to run at a reasonable speed, for quite some time, to charge the battery. - This is needed to run the sound system when the loco is stationary, and track-power is 'zero'.
(explanation for anyone new to this).
If you are battery RC, then you have power available all the time the loco is 'on', so lights can stay on whilst stationary, and the sound system still works.
You could keep your existing radio gear, and just swap-out the older MLS for a Phoenix card.
Alternatively, you could have an ESU decoder, and either a limited number of triggered sounds, or swap the whole radio installation, to something that will drive the ESU decoder with pseudo DCC.
PhilP
tac foley
Registered
It's all very confusing for an old fart like me, thanks. My loco is ALREADY battery r/c, as you can see on Pete's video. He told me that the sierra system was unsupportable/non-compatible with the TRX system he fitted at that time. What do I know?
All I know is that I want better sounds, like those in the Phoenix system - on demand from a handheld unit, apart from those that are automatic depending on speed.
All I know is that I want better sounds, like those in the Phoenix system - on demand from a handheld unit, apart from those that are automatic depending on speed.
maxi-model
UK/US/ROW steam narrow gauge railways 1:1
Hmm. The TX 21 handset in you video looks suspiciously like my Fosworks TX/RX - both Timpdon origin ? I use the Fosworks TX (and Tony Walsham's RCS made TX/RX) with my Sierras. The Fosworks RC kit is in my Accucraft K-27. All Sierras I have use the traction battery to provide power to the stay alive/stationary sound functions.
Go have a word with Steve Foster at Fosworks, he did my Sierra set up in the Accy K-27 with his RC kit. He also sells and installs ESU DCC sound/speed controllers and the RC kit to operate them. ESU, to my mind, are equal to Phoenix and probably a bit easier to get support for, just get the one that handles the amps a metal loco may pull.. You can use some of his handsets for multiple locos, some mixed DC and DCC with the same handset. Once you have the right transmitter from his range then only the receivers are dedicated DC or DCC operation. You might even be able to recycle some of your old Timpdon made RC kit. Max
Go have a word with Steve Foster at Fosworks, he did my Sierra set up in the Accy K-27 with his RC kit. He also sells and installs ESU DCC sound/speed controllers and the RC kit to operate them. ESU, to my mind, are equal to Phoenix and probably a bit easier to get support for, just get the one that handles the amps a metal loco may pull.. You can use some of his handsets for multiple locos, some mixed DC and DCC with the same handset. Once you have the right transmitter from his range then only the receivers are dedicated DC or DCC operation. You might even be able to recycle some of your old Timpdon made RC kit. Max
I think it would be worthwhile for
tac foley
to visit me, I can show both Fosworks DCC and non DCC sound systems (but not fully USA sounds). Clearly your older handset could drive a DCC fitted loco but things move on and you would need a newer TX, DCC RX and a suitably loaded DCC sound chip to access the sounds on demand. This will give the sound you desire.
tac foley
to visit me, I can show both Fosworks DCC and non DCC sound systems (but not fully USA sounds). Clearly your older handset could drive a DCC fitted loco but things move on and you would need a newer TX, DCC RX and a suitably loaded DCC sound chip to access the sounds on demand. This will give the sound you desire.
maxi-model
UK/US/ROW steam narrow gauge railways 1:1
A Sierra can work with modern ESC's that output PWM. However, you really need to interpose a bridge rectifier between the Sierra and the ESC' so that the Sierra gets a smooth DC power supply. Additionally, you need to place a voltage regulator (only) between the traction battery and stay alive functions on the Sierra, as these are usually above the 7.5v the Sierra needs.
Problem is finding a bridge rectifier. John Scanlon, formerly of this parish, made me one that also included a voltage regulator on separate circuit on the card (installed in my Accy K-27). I also use the, now sadly defunct, RCS SSI-9 device, that combined the same functions into one neat package. My 2 Bachman K-27's and a Climax use this in conjuction with their Sierras.
We all love our Sierras but you may have to bite the bullet and look at something like the ESU card allied with an appropriate TX & RX. I did a couple of years ago. The sound fidelity of the ESU cards is excellent. The important bit is getting a good speaker and enclosure to optimise tha quality.
My K-27 sound installation as described above
ESU/Fosworks equipped Bachman Heisler and Mk2 Climax Sierra/RCS equipped.
RC sound installation on my Accy' K-27. Joh's bespoke PWM smoother/voltage regulator card bottom left, Sierra on the right, ESC above the Sierra, RX on top left. The 2 little boxes top right are onto triggers for non automated sounds. All controlled from an Omni 2 (Timpdon) TX. It can be done. Look at where the wires go. The top line on John's card is cleaning up the feed from the ESC, the bottom the voltage regulator for the "stay alive". Somebody may recognise the bits to make a replica. Happy to take more detailed pics to help identification of components.
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Sierra are good quality sounds, but you need to know the 'gotchas' and work round them.
You will also have to find one, and get the correct sounds loaded.
To use the ESU decoder, you will really need to replace your Tx and receiver.
ESU £250.00
Tx (from) £81.00
5A receiver £90.00
To use a Phoenix board, you can keep your existing radio, and just swap the Phoenix for the MLS.
Phoenix around £250.00
PhilP
You will also have to find one, and get the correct sounds loaded.
To use the ESU decoder, you will really need to replace your Tx and receiver.
ESU £250.00
Tx (from) £81.00
5A receiver £90.00
To use a Phoenix board, you can keep your existing radio, and just swap the Phoenix for the MLS.
Phoenix around £250.00
PhilP
tac foley
Registered
Is that something that I can do, or do I need to be a techno-whizkid with a soldering iron?
I can't guarantee you wouldn't need to solder an odd wire, but the Phoenix card, you use a pin to release the wires, and the MLS has screw terminals.
You should be able to get a card loaded with the sounds you want.
Do you know if your loco has a chuff-trigger of some kind?
PhilP
tac foley
Registered
Yes. It hasn't. The current system uses voltage to induce the chuff, which is why it can sound like Mallard when it starts off with a five or six car consist.
By default, steam on Phoenix uses a chuff-trigger, so would need the sensor for that fitting (plus magnets).
So a little bit of extra wiring..
PhilP