DCC or Not

C

colpatben

Registered
Hi all.

Introductions first.

My interest in model railways is primarily DCC and sorry to say that I do run a small (No Pun) N Gauge layout.

I run a DCC evening at my local club (Bexhill)MRC.

Problem next.

Last evening, Wednesday 1st November, a chap turned up with this magnificent USA Trains SD70 loco in Canadian Pacific livery with a Phoenix PB11v6 sound card fitted in the fuel tank. Together with one length of G scale track, also:-

An LGB 50110 Transformer.

An LGB MTS Control 55006.

An LGB 55015 universal handset with radio transmitter and receiver.


He said that apart from a short burst of sound when he set it up there has been not a peep from it since.


He is using the LGB MTS handset with the loco address set to 0 (Zero) for simulated DC operation. The loco definitely does NOT have a decoder fitted.

The loco runs fine up and down the short length of track under handset control with the address at 0 but no sound from the Phoenix board.

We checked and the sound switch under the loco is switched ON and held the biased volume switch in the Up and Down positions for several seconds in each position.

We also laid the loco on its side and attached the track feed to the pickups and ran the loco continuously for several minutes and still no sound.

Is it possible that the Phoenix board does not like the simulated DC supply signal that is derived from ‘chopping’ the DCC signal?

Does he need to stop using the MTS and go fully DC or alternatively add a Loco decoder and stick with DCC control?

The loco is new from USA Trains and they have confirmed by email that this loco is built for DC only.

This chap does not as yet have any G scale track laid so a full run is not possible.

Any thoughts and suggestions would be gratefully received.

Colin
 
MTS address O is not pure DC, but a way of 'stretching' the DCC signal.

My guess is that the Phoenix sound card is not compatible with MTS. Your friend may have damaged the card. I would suggest trying it on a pure DC (LGB) controller. However, there are many here better qualified than I on Phoenix cards.

His best option given that he has MTS would be to fit a loco and sound decoder such as the Massoth XLS....
 
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As the PB11v6 is DCC compatible, it will see the DCC signal and act upon it. By default it will use address 3, so I would suggest that you switch the DCC system to address 3 and see what happens. You can possibly switch off DCC operation but I believe that needs it to be connected to a computer to do.

The manual can be found here: http://www.phoenixsound.com/pdf/PB11v6_Handbook.pdf
 
I agree with Gizzy. The set up he has is not DC, Digital '0' is a compromised signal designed in to fooling a DC motor to run, albeit with vibrations that may not be good for the motors and may well have fried his sound card.
 
I have always found Phoenix's customer service, via email, very prompt and helpful. On the one occasion that I had to return one, they commented that it wasn't the first time that they'd seen the fault but that I was the first to admit what I'd done wrong! If the card has been damaged I suggest sending it to them after an exchange of emails. I found their repair charges very reasonable and I suspect this hasn't changed. Shipping both ways across the Atlantic isn't cheap these days but it will only be a small light package and it is a relatively high value item. Ensure import duties, if any, are only charged on the cost of repair as the tax has already been paid on the item itself.
 
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I'm in agreement with Neil. When I had a problem last year Phoenix were very helpful and sorted me out. Emailing them is the best way to go.
 
Put pure DC on it..

I think you may well get away with what has already been done.

I could look at it for you initially if you like? - Closer and cheaper in the Midlands than to the US!
PhilP
 
Thank to you all for your replies I think the first thing is not to put a loco with DC motors on the track with DCC applied as I have never myself believed that to be a good idea but I guess that the bulk of the motors in a G scale loco would be fairly ‘safe’ for a while!



I will get the owner to remove the fuel tank and I suppose it is possible to disconnect or unplug the Phoenix sound PCB. Then I will try purely on DC and DCC and see if operate it I can read it. If this proves ok then I will try to suggest we install a decoder in the loco.



If the Phoenix is damaged then I will contact PhilP PhilP initially to seek his advice and then email Phoenix.


I am hoping that the sound board is OK as it is DC and DCC operated and using Loco Address 0 should not change the voltage value the sound board sees.


I will be back to report the outcome after the weekend, and if all proved to be OK I will be asking for advice on how to fit a decoder (New Thread for a New Comer).


In the meantime if there are any more thoughts please post them.


Colin
 
Most likely muns has identified the problem; The loco itself has no decoder so it responds to the "bent" DCC of "address 0", but the sound card is DCC compatible and hence is seeing DCC from the MTS system and is waiting for instructions on whichever address it has been set to.
So.... running on pure DC from a different system may allow the soundcard to run in analogue mode with whatever moving sounds and automated sounds it supports. alternatively if the owner wants to use MTS then need to fit a driving decoder to the loco. Stay away from the pseudo DC, it's just not worth risking damage to the loco for the sake of spending a few quid on a decoder.

ps - I believe I recognise the moniker colpatben from the N Gauge Forum?
 
ntpntpntp ntpntpntp

ps - I believe I recognise the moniker colpatben from the N Gauge Forum?

Yes Nick it is I, when I saw your moniker on this forum I thought why not carry mine over to here when I needed help as per this thread.

Nice bunch of guys on here.

Catch you on the flip side.

Colin
 
I do not think the Phoenix sound card can be bad as it is made to run on DCC. Problem is the MTS system in DC mode is not addressing the phoenix sound card. Most sysems use address 0 for the command system, not the decoders. Plus the phoenix board does have a MTS disable feature which can only be set/reset by the Phoenix software/icomputer interface.
 
I have put DC power onto the Phoenix board and there is no response from it!

I used a 5 amp 0-20v DC variable bench top power supply to feed the circuit board and the resultant current draw is as follows:

6VDC. current cycling between 0.06A and 0.74 Amps over 2-3 second

9VDC. current cycling between 0.06A and 0.43 Amps over 2-3 second

12VDC current cycling between 0.06A and 0.30 Amps over 2-3 second

15VDC current cycling between 0.06A and 0.25 Amps over 2-3 second

All of these readings are identical with the DC input reversed.

All of these readings are also the same regardless as to if the speaker or battery pack are connected or disconnected.

All seems a bit strange to me as one would have expected a constant or zero current draw.

Looks like a major failure, I now need to determine if there is an agent in the UK or whether the warrantee is carried with USA Trains as the installer or Phoenix as the manufacturer.

Also put my NCE Powercab but no go at address 3 when I tried to read the CVs it returned ‘Overload’ and no response either.
 
colpatben said:
I have put DC power onto the Phoenix board and there is no response from it!


Looks like a major failure, I now need to determine if there is an agent in the UK or whether the warrantee is carried with USA Trains as the installer or Phoenix as the manufacturer.

.
Click to expand...

You could try Sandy at Scottish Garden Railways, but I suspect he'll advise returning it to the USA.

http://www.gardentrains.co.uk/

Co-incidentally I have a suspect PB11 unit on my bench at the moment that has reportedly suffered some sort of DC/DCC power mix up. Fortunately I have another PB11 to hand and a mate with Phoenix's programming set up. So if I can't reprogram the suspect unit I'll fit and program the other then contact Phoenix directly about a repair.
 
I'd advise looking inside the loco before experimenting with different voltages and methodologies.

Luckily, the NCE system just went into overload when you tried it.

First, I'd test the Phoenix removed from the loco and connected to the NCE system, and try DCC address 3...

Next, open the loco and look for a motor decoder, it's almost certain there is not one there because the guy was using the "address zero" trick, which is not for a dcc decoder but an unmodified DC analog loco...

Then you decide what you want, get a decoder for the loco if you want to run it on DCC...

Greg
 
Greg Elmassian said:
I'd advise looking inside the loco before experimenting with different voltages and methodologies.

Luckily, the NCE system just went into overload when you tried it.

First, I'd test the Phoenix removed from the loco and connected to the NCE system, and try DCC address 3...

Next, open the loco and look for a motor decoder, it's almost certain there is not one there because the guy was using the "address zero" trick, which is not for a dcc decoder but an unmodified DC analog loco...

Then you decide what you want, get a decoder for the loco if you want to run it on DCC...

Greg
Click to expand...
Greg.


Thank you for your input, the progress so far is that we have separated the SD70 fuel tank from the loco and we are certain that the sound card has failed. The next step is that the original supplier in the US has requested that the Phoenix sound system is returned for evaluation and subsequent repair/replacement.

The USA Trains SD70 is definitely DC only and the owner has now bought a DC Analogue controller, and is running the loco quite happily with the lights working as described in the literature including the ditch lights flashing alternately at low speed, we are confident that the fitted lighting electronics are working correctly

We looked at long length at your website article on the full install of a decoder in a USA Trains loco and to be quite honest although a 'Dirty' Install would be practical a 'Full Clean' install seems a little bit daunting.

I am a great fan of your website and find many of your articled interesting and enlightening.

Colin
 
Yeah, unfortunately the way USAT lights their locos is a nightmare! I have found several different voltages, mix of LEDs and incandescents.

I recommend people to go quick and dirty first, start enjoying their loco, and then change lights later. There is a company that made replacement light boards with LEDs, but they were pricey. Basically you really want to change all out for LEDs. On my site I took up the challenge to try to retain some of the incandescent lights, but it's not worth the effort.

Greg

p.s. THANKS for the compliment, it's there for the community, I had some great people helping when I started, trying to repay the favor.
 
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