CS3 and DCC Loco Set Up vs MFX

Greg Elmassian said:
Very helpful explanation... I devined the operating modes of the MLGB and Massoth units, although it does seem that SUSI is an option with the Massoth units, since they also can have a DCC address, although certain features demand a SUSI connection.

So, would you mind just a short comment on what are the features that compel you to use MFX as opposed to DCC, would really like to hear from someone "facile" on his perception of advantages.

Greg
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Greg

With what I've used so far the only real advantage to MFX is that it self registers the decoder - address and functions - to the CS3. In the case of the CS3 and MSD3 decoders in LGB locos it assigns all the icons to functions keys in the CS3, and loco picture, and takes care of addressing because every address in MFX decoder address is unique (caveat I know thats not totally correct). What that means in the real world is just that it takes way less time to set up a loco in the CS3 with MFX vs DCC IF you want to apply the function icons, loco pictures, etc. I dont think from an actual operating perspective there is any real difference. Its nice to just remember what icons represent which type of function as opposed to each F key number and which assignment was made to it. Many of my locos have 24 or more functions and try as I might they are not always consistent loco to loco.

The real reason I want to use MFX and the CS3 is to function map the MSD3 decoders to my liking, which is amazingly difficult under DCC as opposed to using the MDecoderTool with the CS3 in MFX. The ESU Loksound 5 XL decoders are also very difficult to program under straight DCC protocol, and the LokProgrammer makes that very to easy do, though its not doing it in MFX I dont believe. The final point on this is the ability to use something like JMRI-decoder pro, which does not support the Massoth CS, but does the CS2/3.

Tim
 
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phils2um said:
Yes, if both are to have the same DCC address and controlled by single registered loco and associated function buttons on the CS3. It is possible to separately register the smoke unit as a "loco" with a dcc address while having the loco's ESU decoder registered with mfx but this doesn't make much sense because, as you have surmised, the smoke unit would not react to the speed setting of the ESU decoder. I suppose a Hall sensor hooked directly to the MPSG could be used to control the smoke pulses in this case, but why?

It should be possible to connect the Massoth pulsed smoke unit to the ESU decoder via SUSI which would then let it be controlled by the ESU decoder rather than the CS3. I'm not sure how this is done myself having never attempted to set up and program such a SUSI connection. This may or may not allow the combined ESU decoder/MPSG to be controlled with mfx protocol. It probably can as the SUSI bus bypasses the DCC control protocol. The SUSI bus is how the factory installed Massoth pulsed smoke generators are hooked up in the LGB RhB LD1, and Heidi G4/3 locos. These locos came with factory installed MLGB mfx priority multi-protocol decoders. I doubt these were a special run by Massoth with unique electronics just to supply Märklin with a few thousand smoke units but I could be wrong.
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Phils2um - The Massoth DCC Round Boiler Pulsed Smokers can receive their pulses from either either a DCC decoder or Hall Sensor/Pulsed Generator, but as Diesel2000 indicates, the smoker's decoder gets its power and activation commands from track power. The Massoth DCC Rectangular Pulsed Smokers do have an optional SUSI connector to a decoder for receiving the pulses......see photo below.

As Diesel2000 also mentions, the Massoth-produced Pulsed Smokers are specially configured for Marklin's MSD3 decoders using three inputs: SUSI; Track Power 7v.; and Pulsed Generator. They are available as a replacement for the LGB locomotives with the MSD3 decoders, LGB E278188, which I sell on my Website for $75. I've had to replace three of these Marklin pulsed smokers that had failed in customers' MSD3-equipped LGB locomotives, the last one being a brand new LGB 2-10-2 DR Streamer. By the way, when these Marklin smoker's fail, it also messes up the chuff sounds through the MSD3 decoder, so at first I didn't know whether the MSD3 decoder had also failed and needed replacement, but the new smoker installed corrected the operating sounds. I haven't tried it, but I'm wondering if an ESU 5XL decoder could be configured to operate the Marklin/Massoth pulsed smoker by replicating the MSD3 decoder's outputs?

A final data point: In MSD3-equipped LGB Steamers with the Marklin/Massoth Pulsed Smokers, the smoker will operate in both DCC and DC Analog operating modes. I have an LGB 26844 IVK #99 DR Steamer that I took to a recent club member's open house and ran it on his DC analog layout and was surprised to see the pulsed smoker working. However, the Massoth DCC pulsed smokers, both the round boiler and rectangular versions, will only operate in DCC mode, not DC; same for the Massoth Analog pulsed smoker, will only operate in DC. But the MD-Electronics Pulsed Smokers I now stock will operate in both DCC and DC analog mode.

Massoth Pulsed Smoker DCC SUSI Load Control.png
 
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Greg Elmassian said:
I thought that, but in post #14 he says there is no SUSI on the Massoth units, I took that at face value, although I thought they always had SUSI.

Greg
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Greg, the SUSI feature is available only on the DCC and DC Rectangular versions, not the DCC Round Boiler version.

If anyone is interested, I videos on my Website that demonstrate the operation of three pulsed smokers: Massoth DC Pulsed Smoker with Massoth XLS Decoder; MD-Electronics DC Pulsed Smoker with Massoth XLS decoder; and Massoth DCC Round Boiler Pulsed Smoker with Massoth XLS decoder. For the Massoth DC analog smoker, a Hall Sensor/Pulsed Generator in the motor block is producing the pulses to the smoker; for the other two smokers, the XLS decoder is generating the pulses to the smokers. The MD-Electronics pulsed smoker also can generate its own pulses......I didn't video a test in DCC operating mode but it puts out heavy smoke in both DC and DCC modes.
Website Smoker Test Page: PRODUCT DEMONSTRATION VIDEOS | My Site
 
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Greg Elmassian said:
I thought that, but in post #14 he says there is no SUSI on the Massoth units, I took that at face value, although I thought they always had SUSI.

Greg
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As Tom stated the older rectangle versions support SUSI, but not the newer round boiler version. I’m only using the round boiler version 8415001.

Tim
 
Greg Elmassian said:
Thanks again Tim, wonder if the square ones will follow suit to eliminate SUSI?

Greg
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I would imagine. Massoth has not produced the square ones for a few years, but claim they plan to again. The round boilers were an improvement over the square in performance so I'd assume the may eliminate it from new production and standardize, but who knows.
 
Greg Elmassian said:
Thanks again Tim, wonder if the square ones will follow suit to eliminate SUSI?
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Yes, it is already fait accompli. If you check the Massoth website you will see the rectangular SUSI capable pulsed smoke unit has been discontinued. The new version, when available, will be DCC only. 8413502 Pulsed Smoke Generator (digital) – Massoth Elektronik GmbH So, if you are looking for a SUSI capable unit make sure what you get is the discontinued No. 8413501 not new No. 8413502. The website is also where I found out about the new DCC decoder equipped uncouplers. 8442010 Switching Coupler 2.0 (2/pack) – Massoth Elektronik GmbH
 
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phils2um said:
Yes, it is already fait accompli. If you check the Massoth website you will see the rectangular SUSI capable pulsed smoke unit has been discontinued. The new version, when available, will be DCC only. 8413502 Pulsed Smoke Generator (digital) – Massoth Elektronik GmbH So, if you are looking for a SUSI capable unit make sure what you get is the discontinued No. 8413501 not new No. 8413502. The website is also where I found out about the new DCC decoder equipped uncouplers. 8442010 Switching Coupler 2.0 (2/pack) – Massoth Elektronik GmbH
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The existing Massoth DCC rectangle pulsed smoker with SUSI is still available for purchase at some USA dealers. The SUSI feature has been eliminated because the smoker's new internal decoder will have the capability to produce the chuff pulses itself just like the MD-Electronics model I mentioned previously. The Massoth DC Analog model will continue to have the SUSI connection feature. Due to supply chain issues, there are many Massoth products that have been unavailable for some time as shown on the Massoth.de Website such as: The rectangle smokers; the eMotion L Locomotive decoder; and until just this month, their DCC command station and booster.
 
Something is not making a lot of sense. The sentence from post 30: "The SUSI feature has been eliminated because the smoker's new internal decoder will have the capability to produce the chuff pulses itself just like the MD-Electronics model" has confused me.

How would the smoker pulses get synchronized with the motor/sound decoder without:
  • SUSI
  • or connected to a common chuff sensor
??? I cannot follow the logic, please explain.

Greg
 
Greg Elmassian said:
Something is not making a lot of sense. The sentence from post 30: "The SUSI feature has been eliminated because the smoker's new internal decoder will have the capability to produce the chuff pulses itself just like the MD-Electronics model" has confused me.

How would the smoker pulses get synchronized with the motor/sound decoder without:
  • SUSI
  • or connected to a common chuff sensor
??? I cannot follow the logic, please explain.

Greg
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Okay, you're right. To clarify, the smoker still needs to have an input for synchronization of chuffs.
1658682978980.png
 
Greg Elmassian said:
Something is not making a lot of sense. The sentence from post 30: "The SUSI feature has been eliminated because the smoker's new internal decoder will have the capability to produce the chuff pulses itself just like the MD-Electronics model" has confused me.

How would the smoker pulses get synchronized with the motor/sound decoder without:
  • SUSI
  • or connected to a common chuff sensor
??? I cannot follow the logic, please explain.

Greg
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Greg - And here's the guidance on connecting the MD-Electronics Pulsed Smoker to a decoder when there's no sensor.

1658683483282.png1658683635432.png
 
Interesting, the "reason" no susi is that the smoke generator outputs a chuff clock signal, from what is said, to sent to the motor/sound decoder. Sort of crazy architecturally, having the chuff sound depend on the smoke unit.

But then next paragraph talks about sending a clock, without a sensor (i think that alludes to not using a hall effect) then you cannot use the 5 volts (which would go to the hall effect sensor). That makes sense in having ground loops or conflicts with power references between the smoke unit and the main decoder.

So in this case, again the smoke unit outputs the chuff clock on A6.

Really seems kind of ass-backwards to me, for debugging I would want the chuff sound and sync independent of the smoke unit, and once that was working, add on the smoke unit with sync.

maybe the SUSI bus needed a special IC or incurred extra cost? My separate observation was that when there was a SUSI connection, setting CVs from the main decoder through SUSI to the smoke decoder was kind of a pain. Maybe it's a simplification.

Interesting stuff, but more to closely check when fitting a "smart" smoke unit.

Greg
 
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