CS3 and DCC Loco Set Up vs MFX

[Diesel2000]

Hi Folks,

I just acquired a CS3 and 60195 power pack (the USA equivalent to L51095) for 1 gauge/LGB. I've been setting up locos and run into an issue where I have Massoth pulsed smoke generators 8415001 fitted. Initially when using M4/MFX for ESU 5 XL decoders to register on the CS3 the smoke units came on as soon as power was applied and could not be controlled. I realized since the MPSGs are DCC decoders I'd have to set up those locos under DCC protocol in the CS3 and wont be able to use MFX. On DCC they dont respond to F keys and dont come on at all. I verified these are all working properly on my Massoth 1210z system. I fiddled with some settings and they did start working briefly, but after restart of the system I'm back to them not responding.

I have the CS3 set for the L51095 power pack, but dont have an RRamp meter to measure voltage at the rails. The Massoth pulsed smoke generators require 18V minimum, so I was initially wondering if that was the issue and they were getting less after typical decoder voltage loss, but if they came on under MFX protocol then I'm not sure what the issue could be.

Anyone else using a CS3 and these smoke generators in their locos?

 

[PhilP]

You will need to turn off the MFX protocol, and run these loco's on the DCC protocol.
Hopefully, you will then be able to control the loco's.. How are then MPSU's setup? Are they connected by the SUSI bus, or picking up DCC commands via the track supply?

PhilP

 

[Diesel2000]

You will need to turn off the MFX protocol, and run these loco's on the DCC protocol.
Hopefully, you will then be able to control the loco's.. How are then MPSU's setup? Are they connected by the SUSI bus, or picking up DCC commands via the track supply?

PhilP

Yup, I’ve disabled MFX in the 5 XL decoders. The MPSGs are connected directly to track power. They are addressed the same as the loco with their function set to F7.

Unfortunately they do not respond properly in DCC protocol. They worked briefly but after restating they CS3 they stopped. I’ve checked their settings and nothing in them has changed and they are locked with a toggle switch to be able to disconnect them from connection to the track when programming the main loco decoder.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Can you read any CVs back from the smoke units in Service Mode?

Greg

 

[Diesel2000]

Yes. The smoke units are fine. I can read CVs in service mode and I verified they are set as they should be. They work exactly as expected with my 1210z CS. For some reason they are not working on the CS3.

 

[phils2um]

Do they work properly when mfx is turned off on the CS3? Are you sure you've got mfx turned off in the 5XL decoder?

I just last week replaced a Lokpilot V4 decoder with a LokSound 5L DCC (it was $20 cheaper than the multi-protocol version) in one of my early loco conversions. Even though this decoder was supposed to be DCC only it still self-registered on my CS3 as if it was a mfx decoder. I had to disable mfx in the decoder by setting CV47 = 1 (DCC only) for it to work properly. I normally operate my CS3 with both mfx and DCC protocols active.

 

[Diesel2000]

Do they work properly when mfx is turned off on the CS3? Are you sure you've got mfx turned off in the 5XL decoder?

I just last week replaced a Lokpilot V4 decoder with a LokSound 5L DCC (it was $20 cheaper than the multi-protocol version) in one of my early loco conversions. Even though this decoder was supposed to be DCC only it still self-registered on my CS3 as if it was a mfx decoder. I had to disable mfx in the decoder by setting CV47 = 1 (DCC only) for it to work properly. I normally operate my CS3 with both mfx and DCC protocols active.

Great advice - I turned off MFX in the CS3 system settings and rebooted it (using the system menu). Then I was able to control the MPSGs using DCC properly. I then turned mfx back on in the CS3 and rebooted. So far the MPSGs are properly controlled under DCC.

I'm wondering if the CS3 got confused as I initially registered that loco under mfx, then deleted it and reregistered it as DCC. I have turned MFX off in the 5 XL decoder in that loco by setting CV47=1. I will need to do this for all the 5 XL's where I have them fitted with Massoth pulsed smokers.

So far they are now operating as I would expect with both MFX and DCC protocols turned on in the CS3, which is my desired state. So thank you for the troubleshooting advice!

 

[phils2um]

Make sure you save a backup on the CS3 with everything working!

 

[Greg Elmassian]

So to distill this down, was it that the smoke units were confused because the speed commands were going to the motor decoders via MFX? (even though the smoke units were registered under DCC?)

Trying to come to a concise answer

 

[Diesel2000]

So to distill this down, was it that the smoke units were confused because the speed commands were going to the motor decoders via MFX? (even though the smoke units were registered under DCC?)

Trying to come to a concise answer

I think so. I initially registered 2 locos with 5 XL decoders and MPSGs under MFX and the smoke units came right on with no control to turn them off. I then deleted them and re-entered the locos in the CS3 as DCC, and the MPSGs would not respond or turn on at all. It wasnt until I disabled MFX in the CS3 was I able to get the MPSGs working properly in DCC. I then re-enabled MFX in the CS3 and they appear to remain mapped correctly to DCC.

I suspect the decoders in the MPSGs (DCC-only) were somehow confusing the CS3 and getting an MFX signal to them even after the 5 XL decoders were set up under DCC.

Moral of the story - I mismatched the protocols of the 5 XL decoder (MFX and DCC- capable) and the MPSG (DCC-only) and it caused problems. Thankfully there appears to be a solution.

 

[phils2um]

Trying to come to a concise answer

Hi Greg,

I believe some of the issue has to do with clearing residual settings in the CS3 after a loco is deleted from the inventory. Particularly, mfx locos due to the CS3 protocol hierarchy. Restarting the CS3 seems to clear everything in the CS3 processor operating RAM. It may well be that Diesel2000 did not need to set the CS3 for DCC protocol only in order to clear his problem. It's possible a restart of the CS3 the after the mfx loco registration had been deleted was all that was necessary. I suggested he check with DCC as the only protocol active on the CS3 as an easy way to help isolate the problem.

In any case, the ESU decoder also had to be set to DCC protocol only to prevent it self-registering as a mfx loco on the CS3. This again due to protocol hierarchy.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

so the esu needs to be dcc, since the speed commands need to be recognized by the smoke unit also?

 

[phils2um]

so the esu needs to be dcc, since the speed commands need to be recognized by the smoke unit also?

Yes, if both are to have the same DCC address and controlled by single registered loco and associated function buttons on the CS3. It is possible to separately register the smoke unit as a "loco" with a dcc address while having the loco's ESU decoder registered with mfx but this doesn't make much sense because, as you have surmised, the smoke unit would not react to the speed setting of the ESU decoder. I suppose a Hall sensor hooked directly to the MPSG could be used to control the smoke pulses in this case, but why?

It should be possible to connect the Massoth pulsed smoke unit to the ESU decoder via SUSI which would then let it be controlled by the ESU decoder rather than the CS3. I'm not sure how this is done myself having never attempted to set up and program such a SUSI connection. This may or may not allow the combined ESU decoder/MPSG to be controlled with mfx protocol. It probably can as the SUSI bus bypasses the DCC control protocol. The SUSI bus is how the factory installed Massoth pulsed smoke generators are hooked up in the LGB RhB LD1, and Heidi G4/3 locos. These locos came with factory installed MLGB mfx priority multi-protocol decoders. I doubt these were a special run by Massoth with unique electronics just to supply Märklin with a few thousand smoke units but I could be wrong.

 

[Diesel2000]

Yes, if both are to have the same DCC address and controlled by single registered loco and associated function buttons on the CS3. It is possible to separately register the smoke unit as a "loco" with a dcc address while having the loco's ESU decoder registered with mfx but this doesn't make much sense because, as you have surmised, the smoke unit would not react to the speed setting of the ESU decoder. I suppose a Hall sensor hooked directly to the MPSG could be used to control the smoke pulses in this case, but why?

It should be possible to connect the Massoth pulsed smoke unit to the ESU decoder via SUSI which would then let it be controlled by the ESU decoder rather than the CS3. I'm not sure how this is done myself having never attempted to set up and program such a SUSI connection. This may or may not allow the combined ESU decoder/MPSG to be controlled with mfx protocol. It probably can as the SUSI bus bypasses the DCC control protocol. The SUSI bus is how the factory installed Massoth pulsed smoke generators are hooked up in the LGB RhB LD1, and Heidi G4/3 locos. These locos came with factory installed MLGB mfx priority multi-protocol decoders. I doubt these were a special run by Massoth with unique electronics just to supply Märklin with a few thousand smoke units but I could be wrong.

In fact those MLGB Massoth produced MPSGs are different. I got the spec sheet on them and they operate at 7V as opposed to 18-22V on the Massoth versions and receive power from the MSD3 decoder. The Massoth versions need to be connected to track power and in the case of steam setting are hooked up to the 5 XL decoder to get chuff sync. There is no susi capability on the Massoth versions. The MLGB versions do not have any address capability and cannot be used separately from the loco decoder.

With the 5XL ESU I think you could in fact connect the MLGB version and configure the decoder properly to control it, in which case you could then use mfx on the 5 XL, but it would take some time to work out.

It’s easier to just set it all up as DCC. I think if I had not first register those locos as mfx there would not have been any issues. That was my mistake.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

So the MLGB versions must connect vs SUSI right? Or are they MFX only?

Interesting stuff (almost getting more complex than simpler)

Greg

 

[JimmyB]

(almost getting more complex than simpler)

Greg

You said it Greg

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Yeah, not trying to belabor but understand here.

The official Marklin line would be "use the mfx decdoer, the cs3 in MFX mode, and the smoke units WE sell, the "MLGB" units.

Then perhaps it is simple...

I guess it is simple if you force the mfx to DCC and use your massoth DCC units as stand alone (but same address), BUT the CS3 seems fixated on MFX and this exchange just underscores to me that most people should only have one or the other protocol active on all components.

Note I said MOST PEOPLE...

Greg

 

[phils2um]

The official Marklin line would be "use the mfx decdoer, the cs3 in MFX mode, and the smoke units WE sell, the "MLGB" units.

Actually, the MLGB pulsed smoke units are only sold as replacement parts. They are not intended to be an "add-on".

I've never had an issue caused by my CS3 operating with both mfx and DCC active when loco decoders are properly setup. This is my usual mode of operation. Like Diesel2000, I very seldom operate with DCC only (or mfx only for that matter). I only do this if I want to change the programming on a DCC decoder using the CS3.

Märklin recognizes they have inherited a large installed base using DCC in addition to mfx and MM2. After all, they sold a lot of MLGB with Massoth sourced DCC decoders/electronics before switching over to their own multi-protocol decoders. Also, if they were that mfx centric they would not be installing multi-protocol decoders in their latest G, 1, HO, and N locos. They do seem to be abandoning the Selectrix digital control protocol that came with the Trix acquisition and concentrating on mfx and DCC.

A couple of final comments on Massoth. They appear to be abandoning the SUSI bus. Neither of their latest digital smoke units support SUSI and are strictly DCC but will accept clock inputs from a driving decoder (or a separate Hall sensor) in leu of the SUSI. This makes sense to me and actually makes installation easier in my mind. Also of note is that Massoth's newest automatic hook and loop uncoupler is now already in rev2 and also has integral DCC decoders. Now the uncouplers can be installed on any loco or wagon (running DCC protocol)!

 

[Diesel2000]

So the MLGB versions must connect vs SUSI right? Or are they MFX only?

Interesting stuff (almost getting more complex than simpler)

Greg

So the MLGB versions must connect vs SUSI right? Or are they MFX only?

Interesting stuff (almost getting more complex than simpler)

Greg

The MLGB smoke generators are SUSI only. They don’t recognize MFX. They are designed to be used by the MSD3 multi protocol decoder, so they will work if that decoder is being controlled under MFX or DCC. Hopefully that point is clear. They are only sold as OEM or replacement parts and not as add-ons.

The Massoth version of the smoke units are different and are great for after-market installation because they are their own decoder, but this forces one to use DCC to to control that loco.

A few things about me and how I operate: I have 98% LGB equipment from the last 35 years. I prefer the ESU Loksound 5 XL decoders for their ease of install and their superior sound profiles, and have replaced any inferior decoder sound with these. I also have some Massoth emotion decoders, which are great for what they do.

I’m a long-time Massoth user who is just starting with Marklin CS3. I have full layout automation with iTrain. I really like the detail of new Marklin LGB and have locos with MSD3 decoders (mostly RhB). I found function mapping those decoders under DCC impossible so that’s why I decided to try a CS3.

I’m very impressed by the CS3 in comparison to my multiple Massoth CS (1210z and 800z). I can now control and operate my layout with iTrain and the CS3 with a single iPad whether automated or manually. I can now run the MSD3 decoders in MFX and easily change function mapping on those and DCC locos. The 5 XL decoders can be run in either format depending if I have MPSGs installed. I will run locos with just 5 XL in MFX.

I intend to purchase a Massoth 1202B 12 amp booster so I have a single power source for the layout with 12 amps (divided into power districts with PSX breakers) and will retain that capability from my Massoth 1210 system with the new CS3. I intend to use the CS3, Massoth 1202 booster, and iTrain going forward. Note I will continue to use the Massoth 800z for the Massoth feedback modules and track contract in iTrain and the CS3 to control the locos and switches.

I would say I have now reached my desired state of operation with the devices I’ve chosen to invest in. Multi protocol in my case with MFX and DCC has really advanced my running experience even though I could run all the MFX as DCC as well. The CS3 features and the ability to control remotely from a browser/vnc viewer are what really pushed me to make the switch over the 2.4ghz wireless Massoth NAV system.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Very helpful explanation... I devined the operating modes of the MLGB and Massoth units, although it does seem that SUSI is an option with the Massoth units, since they also can have a DCC address, although certain features demand a SUSI connection.

So, would you mind just a short comment on what are the features that compel you to use MFX as opposed to DCC, would really like to hear from someone "facile" on his perception of advantages.

Greg