Converting LGB LCE to RC Battery Powered w/Sound

napalmdrinker

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Australia
G'day, first time poster, so apologies if this is posted in the wrong place.

This'll also be a pretty loaded post, but I want to try to get all the information I've researched in one go. So apologies for how much there'll be.
I will also say, I have zero experience with wiring and soldering, so will be learning how it all works as I go along.

My goal is to convert my LGB LCE 70600 from the original track power, to remote control and battery power with a sound card as well, so I can just unpack it on whatever layout, and just turn it on and control it wirelessly with a controller.
And if possible, make it interchangable between track/battery power, track power not needing to be wirelessly controlled.

The whole train consists of 8 cars, a powered car at each end, with 6 intermediate between.
train.png
So far the only thing I know for certain I'd have to get would be an ESU LokSound 5 XL sound card, as they have a sound file that I like.

My problems start with that I'm not sure what else I need to get, or how any of it works.

Transmitter/Receiver:
--I've been looking into Deltang/RCT for a transmitter/receiver, with the Tx20 transmitter looking to be better suited for my needs, but then not knowing which receiver of the 2 they offer to go with. I'd only be needing a small amount of extra sounds, such as horn, station announcements etc, so the
--The Rx102 (The RCT-Rx102 receiver) seems the more basic, and the wiring diagram they show on their page looks like what I think I;m going for. And the Rx65c (The RCT-Rx65b receiver) looks like it has more options for connecting to a sound card, and has a built-in esc, which sounds like a good thing?
--I'd also seen ESU has their own controller, the Mobile Control II, but they are horribly expensive, and I've got no clue what kind of receiver they work with.

Wiring:
--Given I've not done anything of the sort before, I've got no clue as to what wires go where, or how things work electrically.
--To go the cheaper route, I'll most likely go with the main workings at one end, i.e. battery, receiver, sound card, speakers, and have wires go through the train to the other end to power the other motor/speakers/directional light.
--I'd seen on another post on here that someone had used mini DIN plugs/sockets at each carriage connection to get them through and still be able to take the train apart for storage. Though I'd heard somewhere that having a long cable between power and motor has some kind of effect with resistance/power loss? Again, I have zero clue with electrics.
--With that, do different coloured wires do different things, or are they just to differentiate between uses? And if so, are there common colours for certain uses to stick to, or just go with whatever and remember what does what yourself?

Sound Card:
--The ESU LokSound 5 XL, from what I can tell, would best suit how I want it to sound. Apart from that, and from what little I've found, I wouldn't know as to how to it works. Such as what wires would go where? A diagram of what the terminals all do I found just ends up confusing me. Do wires for directional lights need to go straight from the receiver to the lights, or do they go through the decoder first? Do wires go to the from the receiver to the decoder and then to the motor?
--I'd be getting the ESU LokProgrammer to go with it so I could put on my own sound file from their site.
--From what I've seen, it looks like you just set certain terminals to a sound, and the receiver triggers it if a wire connects to it and is powered? I have yet to learn how increasing the speed of the train changes how the sound of the engine builds up, but I assume it detects power increase for the motor wires? Or axle rotation?

Battery:
--I've already got a good LiPo battery that I use for my R/C rock crawler car, so I'd hope to use that for this as well preferably.
--It's a 7.4V 5Amp LiPo battery, and have a fancy charger for it already. Would this be a big/small enough power to work with everything? I think I'd seen that the motors normally run on 24V, so if need be a can get another to meet any power requirements
Battery.png
--I've seen on diagrams from a guide on conversion, Dummies Guide To Convert A Track Powered G Scale Locomotive To Rc Battery Powered and Getting started with battery power and radio control, that I'd need a switch and fuse, and wondered if their still needed if I can unplug the battery instead. I'd altered the diagram for what I think works for if I went for interchangeable power between track and battery. From a little bit of research, I think that's how that kind of switch works?
mypowerdiagram.png
--I have no idea how a receiver would work, if at all, when connected to basic analog track power. I'd still want at least basic electric motor sounds when powered by the track if that's how it works.
--Somewhat related, but I'd read somewhere that it'd be best to get a voltage detector for the battery to tell me when it's getting low, as apparently LiPo batteries shouldn't be run empty.

Speakers:
--At least with this part, I know bigger is better. But are there certain kinds of speakers that are better than others?
--I'd be going with ESU branded speakers for consistancy, but with how many different sizes and shapes they have, it's all a bit overwhelming.

Thankfully these carriages have an abundance of space for all the things I'll need to put in them, so I've no shortage in that regard.

I've spent quite a while researching and compiling all the information I could, so hopefully this mostly covers everything I'm trying to do, so if I missed anything someone else may know of, or anything else I can add on to help with helping, could you please mention so. I'll try my best to reply to anything as soon as possible.

And if anyone in Australia, or more locally around Melbourne, knows of someone who does these conversions more professionally, that would be greatly appreciated. I would like to learn to do things like this myself, but going from no experience to this project, I've no clue how easy it is.

Thank you for taking the time to read, and I hope to receive some valuable advice to get my train converted.
 
Have a look at some of my conversions in the Battery Thread they should help some. As for the Locsound this a DCC decoder and I do not think that the Deltang does DCc as yet. PhilP PhilP may confirm this.

If not you have other options, both Fosworks and Crest do DCc battery options as do other USA providers. But if you go down the Deltang route you could loook at the My Loco Sound card (MLS) which with a bit of faffing with the Deltang Tx (transmitter) you can get up to 5 sounds and the MLS will be a much cheeper setup.

Not quite sure that I understand your wiring, but if you regard the track as the battery input then you pretty much have it nailed. An on/off switch can be used to swop between charge mode and run mode. BUT for ease and simplicity I would go for NiMh batteries, these can be left to charge with few worries about Thermal Runaway. You also have plenty of space for batteries in the unit, 24v not needed but 2 x 7.2v racing car batteries would give you plenty of running and speed.

Pause for thoughts!
 
Nice project!

I have a few years experience with designing my own custom wireless DCC systems, both for track and battery power.

Loksound V5 XL's are a great choice - the ESU decoders, IMHO, are one of the best, and the sound file and configuration options are in-depth. There is a fairly steep and not-that-well documented learning curve for programming sounds, but its a powerful way to do it and to get it to sound right. Also the built in motor curves / functions for motor settings enable you to tune the motor control so that it's pretty much perfect. The back EMF speed control is also great - when I first got a Rugen it was on a Massoth and would slow down on R1 points - the Loksound did away with that.

Transmitter/Receiver:
I agree with dunnyrail - if you want to do wireless with DCC decoders a Fosworks or Crest system is likely the way to go.

Wiring:
My recommendation would be to fit the same decoder at both ends. This means you only need to run 2 wires the whole length of the train. Running motor, lights and speakers in the same cable run, at that length, could cause you issues (like motor noise on the speaker, inducted voltages , etc).

You may be able to get away with a LokSound at one end and a LokPilot at the other- however in all my testing I could never get them to play nicely - most of the LokSound files have a delay after the throttle is increased from standing - to let the sound of the throttle 'wind up' (this is the same for steam / diesel / electric). There is no way of communicating this to the LokPilot (I've tried a few different ways).

As for wiring colours, I have a colour scheme that works for me, but doing yourself a little sketch is a great idea - trust me, in a year or two when you come to work on it or fault find it saves a ton of head scratching!

Sound Card:
Kind of tied in to wiring above, but essentially the radio (a DCC capable one) drives the decoder, and the decoder drives everything else. You are replacing the track connection shown below with a DCC radio:

1757019526321.png

In regards to how the sound 'builds up' the decoder does this based on throttle input from the controller, and some sound projects also use the load on the motor to change the sound as it is working harder / not as hard (these are rarer).
Some sound projects also have functions to allow you to switch a 'primary load' which changes the sound to be working harder, and a 'coast' which changes the sound to be softer. These are triggered by you, from a function button.


Battery:
I use Li-Ion's in my battery locos, and these are 6S (22.2v) but you don't need to do that. I would suggest that 2 x 7.4v packs in series would be a better bet - 7.4v might be a bit slow, and is possibly a bit low for the decoder.

I would highly recommend NOT charging the battery from the track unless you know what you are doing. Lithium batteries need to be charged correctly, with a proper charger.

Deffo fit a fuse between the batteries and the DCC radio - those batteries can supply 100A+ quite happily.

In regards to track power, I would use a DPDT switch, with the feed from the DCC radio one side, a feed from the track the other side, and the output to the decoder in the middle. This prevents you shorting between DCC radio / track, and gives you and off position (switch in the middle).

The LokSound decoders will work in analogue track power mode - with the above mentioned switch for changing between DCC radio and track.



Speakers wise, the 29mmx65mm passive radiator speaker is nice, I use these in my locos, ESU P/N 50343.



Hope that helps :)
 
Have a look at some of my conversions in the Battery Thread they should help some. As for the Locsound this a DCC decoder and I do not think that the Deltang does DCc as yet. PhilP PhilP may confirm this.

If not you have other options, both Fosworks and Crest do DCc battery options as do other USA providers. But if you go down the Deltang route you could loook at the My Loco Sound card (MLS) which with a bit of faffing with the Deltang Tx (transmitter) you can get up to 5 sounds and the MLS will be a much cheeper setup.

Not quite sure that I understand your wiring, but if you regard the track as the battery input then you pretty much have it nailed. An on/off switch can be used to swop between charge mode and run mode. BUT for ease and simplicity I would go for NiMh batteries, these can be left to charge with few worries about Thermal Runaway. You also have plenty of space for batteries in the unit, 24v not needed but 2 x 7.2v racing car batteries would give you plenty of running and speed.

Pause for thoughts!
Thanks for the reply,

I'll have to look into those options for sound/battery, I'd really only focused on what I found and tried researching based around them.

I also don't really understand my wiring haha, so hopefully it at least helps me learn more.

Thanks again!
 
Nice project!

I have a few years experience with designing my own custom wireless DCC systems, both for track and battery power.

Loksound V5 XL's are a great choice - the ESU decoders, IMHO, are one of the best, and the sound file and configuration options are in-depth. There is a fairly steep and not-that-well documented learning curve for programming sounds, but its a powerful way to do it and to get it to sound right. Also the built in motor curves / functions for motor settings enable you to tune the motor control so that it's pretty much perfect. The back EMF speed control is also great - when I first got a Rugen it was on a Massoth and would slow down on R1 points - the Loksound did away with that.

Transmitter/Receiver:
I agree with dunnyrail - if you want to do wireless with DCC decoders a Fosworks or Crest system is likely the way to go.

Wiring:
My recommendation would be to fit the same decoder at both ends. This means you only need to run 2 wires the whole length of the train. Running motor, lights and speakers in the same cable run, at that length, could cause you issues (like motor noise on the speaker, inducted voltages , etc).

You may be able to get away with a LokSound at one end and a LokPilot at the other- however in all my testing I could never get them to play nicely - most of the LokSound files have a delay after the throttle is increased from standing - to let the sound of the throttle 'wind up' (this is the same for steam / diesel / electric). There is no way of communicating this to the LokPilot (I've tried a few different ways).

As for wiring colours, I have a colour scheme that works for me, but doing yourself a little sketch is a great idea - trust me, in a year or two when you come to work on it or fault find it saves a ton of head scratching!

Sound Card:
Kind of tied in to wiring above, but essentially the radio (a DCC capable one) drives the decoder, and the decoder drives everything else. You are replacing the track connection shown below with a DCC radio:

View attachment 347176

In regards to how the sound 'builds up' the decoder does this based on throttle input from the controller, and some sound projects also use the load on the motor to change the sound as it is working harder / not as hard (these are rarer).
Some sound projects also have functions to allow you to switch a 'primary load' which changes the sound to be working harder, and a 'coast' which changes the sound to be softer. These are triggered by you, from a function button.


Battery:
I use Li-Ion's in my battery locos, and these are 6S (22.2v) but you don't need to do that. I would suggest that 2 x 7.4v packs in series would be a better bet - 7.4v might be a bit slow, and is possibly a bit low for the decoder.

I would highly recommend NOT charging the battery from the track unless you know what you are doing. Lithium batteries need to be charged correctly, with a proper charger.

Deffo fit a fuse between the batteries and the DCC radio - those batteries can supply 100A+ quite happily.

In regards to track power, I would use a DPDT switch, with the feed from the DCC radio one side, a feed from the track the other side, and the output to the decoder in the middle. This prevents you shorting between DCC radio / track, and gives you and off position (switch in the middle).

The LokSound decoders will work in analogue track power mode - with the above mentioned switch for changing between DCC radio and track.



Speakers wise, the 29mmx65mm passive radiator speaker is nice, I use these in my locos, ESU P/N 50343.



Hope that helps :)
Thanks for the reply!

I hadn't even heard of Fosworks or Crest, but from a quick search, they look like good options already.

If I had a decoder at each end, would those two wires be from the receiver, so wires from the one receiver would be split up? I'm sure I'd be able to find/figure it out when I get there also.

That diagram helps with understanding quite a lot, so thank you for that. I'm not sure what the wiring on the right side with the AUX and U+ terminals are for, but again I'm sure there's some kind of guide for what every terminal does.

Any battery I'd be getting would definitely not be charged from the track, they''d hopefully be removable to charge in a more controlled manner, with a specialized charger if necessary.

Thanks again for the advice, I'm sure if ever I'm need of more, that there's endless knowledge from everyone on here.
 
Thanks for the reply!

I hadn't even heard of Fosworks or Crest, but from a quick search, they look like good options already.

If I had a decoder at each end, would those two wires be from the receiver, so wires from the one receiver would be split up? I'm sure I'd be able to find/figure it out when I get there also.

That diagram helps with understanding quite a lot, so thank you for that. I'm not sure what the wiring on the right side with the AUX and U+ terminals are for, but again I'm sure there's some kind of guide for what every terminal does.

Any battery I'd be getting would definitely not be charged from the track, they''d hopefully be removable to charge in a more controlled manner, with a specialized charger if necessary.

Thanks again for the advice, I'm sure if ever I'm need of more, that there's endless knowledge from everyone on here.

No probs.
In regards to wiring, this is what I was thinking:

1757070611181.png

U+ is DCC input power minus around 2V - so if you have 14V of battery, U+ will supply around 12V.
All of the function inputs are switched via ground - the decoder switches that pin to ground to complete the circuit when you press a function button.

Good news on the battery :)
 
No probs.
In regards to wiring, this is what I was thinking:

View attachment 347203

U+ is DCC input power minus around 2V - so if you have 14V of battery, U+ will supply around 12V.
All of the function inputs are switched via ground - the decoder switches that pin to ground to complete the circuit when you press a function button.

Good news on the battery :)
That is an amazing diagram, thank you. It looks like it will help immensely in getting me to understand more of what I'll eventually be trying to do.

At this point until I can figure out more with what I'll be getting, I'll just get the Programmer and a speaker or two of the one you recommended.

If I were to try going with a LokSound at one end, and a LokPilot at the other, would you by chance know which is the best one to get? From what I can tell, I think I'd need to get one of the DCC versions, but then some of them are listed with or without an 8 pin option. If it's possible I might try to have the LokPilot at one end controlling the motor and light, and the power/receiver at the other with the LokSound with it's own speaker, and have a wire along the length of the train to a 2nd speaker with the LokPilot. Or would that have the interference you'd mentioned ealier?
Would it be possible to avoid it by having the wires further part even when insulated? Or do the electrics work differently than I think they do. There's surely enough enough space to have them a decent bit apart instead of bundled together.

I imagine it would be simpler to have a 2nd LokSound, but that'd hurt my wallet quite a bit haha.

Apologies if I asking too much, you seem to know a lot, especially looking through some of your older posts on the topic. Will need to do a lot more research from the looks of it.
Thanks again.
 
Glad to be of service :)

Yeah I think getting a programmer, speaker and a decoder to have a go with sounds is a good idea. Best advice - go to the ESU website and download a few different sound projects. Open them up and have a good look through. There are a couple of useful things on the interweb, including and unofficial guide to using Lok programmer to do sound stuff: https://groups.io/g/Loksound/files/ESU LokSound v4.0 Programmer Software User Manual, v1

It's a few years old now and some things have been added / changed, but mostly its a good reference guide to get where you're going, though its a very long and very windy path :D

In regards to the LokPilot, you would want a LokPilot L (they don't make an XL). DCC signal is electrically noisy, so yeah that would be as bad or worse to run together down the train. As to how bad it is, couldn't say. If you kept them separate apart from connectors you might get away with it.

It is much simpler to have a second loksound - I'm not sure of prices in NZ, but here a LokPilot L would be around £90, with a LokSound XL being around £180. So yep, double the cost. I would re-iterate the point that if you want a LS and a LP to work together then you are limited to how the sounds work with the Loco. I have a video of my research somewhere, but it boils down to the LP will either lead or lag the LS motor speed, e.g. when the LS starts accelerating, the LP will start moving after, or before, which means you are either dragging it or it is pushing, both of which aren't ideal.

Nah you're good - I don't mind helping out if it gets a fellow G Scaler up and running :)
 
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