A tripping hazard may be encountered on the route of realism, this should perhaps be wisely avoided, and the pursuit of fun be further encouraged.
Controversial tip
- Thread starter chris m01
- Start date
yb281 said:spike said:
For me Spike, about as far as Philip went earlier in the thread. Cos for me, they're spot on.
Thanks Mel.
It does'nt matter to me one way or another what anyone does with their pics.
One thing about GSC and the old GSM is I enjoyed seeing all the pics that I managed to view,
whatever the content.
May I just add I love your weathering on that diesel and hoppers, excellent
spike said:May I just add I love your weathering on that diesel and hoppers, excellent
Thanks mate
.
Its a reasoned viewpoint Paul.
The hobby needs to be promoted on two levels at least :
1. Toys to encourage kids to participate
2. Realistic models in near realistic settings which you can still have fun with.
But for published photographs the world can see :
Ask yourself a few questions..............
Do you want your layout to look like a toy in primary colours ?
or
Do you want it to be a fair representation of the real thing ?
Do you want your non railway friends to visit and say.........."Wow, fantastic model"
Or laugh at you ?
Do you want G Scale to be viewed by the rest of the modelling world as a fairly serious (but not always) branch of the hobby ?
Have you looked at other Forums and Societies ?
Have you seen any toy figures on the American and German layouts featured ? I haven't
If you spent a few thousand pounds on say a Bachmann K27, a Forney and two dozen wagons and a load of track and buildings, which is the better way to embellish it ?
Nice scale figures ?
Or toy figures in bright primary colours ?
And yes, there are times for fun and messing about - Eeyore, Teletubbies, Tin Tin, Daleks, Guinea pigs in G Scale wagons..........................been there, done it.
Do you understand what I am trying to convey ?
[/quote]
Yes I do see your point of view Paul but the trouble is what comes across is that if your not using Scale realistic looking figures, then somehow your doing it wrong, I fully support and admire your level of realism but it 'aint the only way to go!
Question 1 Do you want your layout to look like a toy in primary colours ?
or
Do you want it to be a fair representation of the real thing.
I honestly don't mind either way I have done a bit of both on my railway, and then we get to just how real does it have to be to be to be a "fair representation"?
Question 2 Do you want your non railway friends to visit and say.........."Wow, fantastic model"
Or laugh at you ?
My friends laugh at me for playing trains anyway and why should I care if anybody laughs at me?
Question 3 Do you want G Scale to be viewed by the rest of the modelling world as a fairly serious (but not always) branch of the hobby ?
Once again I don't care how others view the hobby why should I? others will get what ever pleasure they want, why should they care what I or others do?
Question 4 Have you looked at other Forums and Societies ?
Have you seen any toy figures on the American and German layouts featured ? I haven't
Yes I have during my years at this hobby one that comes to mind is LGB Kastalina? I think that was the name of it.
Question 5 If you spent a few thousand pounds on say a Bachmann K27, a Forney and two dozen wagons and a load of track and buildings, which is the better way to embellish it ?
I have spent many thousannd of dollars on my Hobby and I havn't really thought about the best way to embellish it really, but the point is I would do it in the way I wanted to, not what I think others would like best.
Question 6 Nice scale figures ?
Or toy figures in bright primary colours ?
Again it's down to what I want to do not what others think I should do.
The whole point is we all should do what we want to do, there IS NO wrong or right way to do it, and to say there is is just plain wrong! we are all playing with toy's in the garden, and as for brining in fresh blood to the hobby they will be less likley to come in if we tell them "well that's the wrong way to do it" most have had enough of that in the smaller scales.
The hobby needs to be promoted on two levels at least :
1. Toys to encourage kids to participate
2. Realistic models in near realistic settings which you can still have fun with.
But for published photographs the world can see :
Ask yourself a few questions..............
Do you want your layout to look like a toy in primary colours ?
or
Do you want it to be a fair representation of the real thing ?
Do you want your non railway friends to visit and say.........."Wow, fantastic model"
Or laugh at you ?
Do you want G Scale to be viewed by the rest of the modelling world as a fairly serious (but not always) branch of the hobby ?
Have you looked at other Forums and Societies ?
Have you seen any toy figures on the American and German layouts featured ? I haven't
If you spent a few thousand pounds on say a Bachmann K27, a Forney and two dozen wagons and a load of track and buildings, which is the better way to embellish it ?
Nice scale figures ?
Or toy figures in bright primary colours ?
And yes, there are times for fun and messing about - Eeyore, Teletubbies, Tin Tin, Daleks, Guinea pigs in G Scale wagons..........................been there, done it.
Do you understand what I am trying to convey ?
[/quote]
Yes I do see your point of view Paul but the trouble is what comes across is that if your not using Scale realistic looking figures, then somehow your doing it wrong, I fully support and admire your level of realism but it 'aint the only way to go!
Question 1 Do you want your layout to look like a toy in primary colours ?
or
Do you want it to be a fair representation of the real thing.
I honestly don't mind either way I have done a bit of both on my railway, and then we get to just how real does it have to be to be to be a "fair representation"?
Question 2 Do you want your non railway friends to visit and say.........."Wow, fantastic model"
Or laugh at you ?
My friends laugh at me for playing trains anyway and why should I care if anybody laughs at me?
Question 3 Do you want G Scale to be viewed by the rest of the modelling world as a fairly serious (but not always) branch of the hobby ?
Once again I don't care how others view the hobby why should I? others will get what ever pleasure they want, why should they care what I or others do?
Question 4 Have you looked at other Forums and Societies ?
Have you seen any toy figures on the American and German layouts featured ? I haven't
Yes I have during my years at this hobby one that comes to mind is LGB Kastalina? I think that was the name of it.
Question 5 If you spent a few thousand pounds on say a Bachmann K27, a Forney and two dozen wagons and a load of track and buildings, which is the better way to embellish it ?
I have spent many thousannd of dollars on my Hobby and I havn't really thought about the best way to embellish it really, but the point is I would do it in the way I wanted to, not what I think others would like best.
Question 6 Nice scale figures ?
Or toy figures in bright primary colours ?
Again it's down to what I want to do not what others think I should do.
The whole point is we all should do what we want to do, there IS NO wrong or right way to do it, and to say there is is just plain wrong! we are all playing with toy's in the garden, and as for brining in fresh blood to the hobby they will be less likley to come in if we tell them "well that's the wrong way to do it" most have had enough of that in the smaller scales.
Ye sthanks to Paul for creating this thread to liven things up after Christmas - I've enjoyed it.
Sorry to point out that thee is a serious fault with Rick's photo - surely that little person should be mooning at the train!
Sorry to point out that thee is a serious fault with Rick's photo - surely that little person should be mooning at the train!
I quite like the George Turner figures see http://www.georgeturnermodels.com/index.php?page=shopping&shop_cat_id=5 . It has to be said that they aren't as well detailed as the top brands but they do come in a variety of scales and I like the characters. They pass the 4 foot rule for normal viewing.
They seem to cope with being outdoors ok
And don't look bad indoos (sorry the photo ain't so good)
They seem to cope with being outdoors ok
And don't look bad indoos (sorry the photo ain't so good)
I especially like the way that none of them is actually doing anything - they ae just hanging around.
Ah Minimans, watch for the train that moons back! And no, not even close to missing Duhbayah.
The majority of my figures are Lehmann, but there are some problems finding figures good for the 1930s, or getting too many of the same figure.
The other problem, as pointed out, Preiser/Pola are expensive, and some are just odd such as the gangster and the short haired "hitch-hiker" (yeah right). For example, I have the postman, but he is giving a letter to a Dutchman?
But I have found a "split the difference" that are working out so far.
For the price of one and a half Preiser sets, I JUST opened a box from Ridge Road Sation containing several Schleich figures and accessories. Blacksmith, midevil well, midevil ox cart, two Simmental cattle, a small billy goat and a female wild boar to go with my male one (their genders are VERY obvious). $45 for the lot.
http://www.schleich-s.com/
Granted, their human figure range is not as big, but there are a few worth looking out for, as the blacksmith and the female farmhand are both good for my railway's needs, and they will probably "Live" at my large Pola farmhouse.
http://www.amazon.com/Schleich-Farmers-Wife/dp/B000ONYVYE
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Schleich-13...f=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=kids&qid=1262209727&sr=1-1
And for fun, this may lurk in the bushes around the Piko biergarten:
http://www.amazon.com/Schleich-70204-Elf-Fairy/dp/B000EDPTJK
Czechoslovakia never did fully stop the prodcution of absinthe afterall....
The majority of my figures are Lehmann, but there are some problems finding figures good for the 1930s, or getting too many of the same figure.
The other problem, as pointed out, Preiser/Pola are expensive, and some are just odd such as the gangster and the short haired "hitch-hiker" (yeah right). For example, I have the postman, but he is giving a letter to a Dutchman?
But I have found a "split the difference" that are working out so far.
For the price of one and a half Preiser sets, I JUST opened a box from Ridge Road Sation containing several Schleich figures and accessories. Blacksmith, midevil well, midevil ox cart, two Simmental cattle, a small billy goat and a female wild boar to go with my male one (their genders are VERY obvious). $45 for the lot.
http://www.schleich-s.com/
Granted, their human figure range is not as big, but there are a few worth looking out for, as the blacksmith and the female farmhand are both good for my railway's needs, and they will probably "Live" at my large Pola farmhouse.
http://www.amazon.com/Schleich-Farmers-Wife/dp/B000ONYVYE
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Schleich-13...f=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=kids&qid=1262209727&sr=1-1
And for fun, this may lurk in the bushes around the Piko biergarten:
http://www.amazon.com/Schleich-70204-Elf-Fairy/dp/B000EDPTJK
Czechoslovakia never did fully stop the prodcution of absinthe afterall....
I'd just like to point out that except in the context of still photography, all figures are wrong.
The static scenery is fine. It just sits there.
The trains move. That's what they're supposed to do.
The people don't move. They should.
Figures lack a vital fourth dimension which trains have and buildings don't need.
QED
The static scenery is fine. It just sits there.
The trains move. That's what they're supposed to do.
The people don't move. They should.
Figures lack a vital fourth dimension which trains have and buildings don't need.
QED
It depends on your intentions, if your posting a pic trying to capture a realistic scene then using the pricier picture makes all the sense, but if your just sharing a picture of what your doing and have no intention but to have fun, then any figure that makes you happy is what you should be using.
Theres a real divide between "fun" model railroading and "serious" model railroading.
I fall into the fun catagory, I do not nor ever will use playmobile figures but I can understand why some would chose to do so, the economic reason being the most persuasive. I use mosty a line of figures from "Just Plain Folks" made by John Schnieder which are typical American turn of the century figures which fit my theme and layout, but I would never try to impose my judgement on what other should use
Theres a real divide between "fun" model railroading and "serious" model railroading.
I fall into the fun catagory, I do not nor ever will use playmobile figures but I can understand why some would chose to do so, the economic reason being the most persuasive. I use mosty a line of figures from "Just Plain Folks" made by John Schnieder which are typical American turn of the century figures which fit my theme and layout, but I would never try to impose my judgement on what other should use
HBB said:I'd just like to point out that except in the context of still photography, all figures are wrong.
The static scenery is fine. It just sits there.
The trains move. That's what they're supposed to do.
The people don't move. They should.
Figures lack a vital fourth dimension which trains have and buildings don't need.
QED
Well it depends what you mean by "wrong". Your wrong and my wrong may be quite different.
A loco without a crew looks very wrong to me. Ghostly in fact. That's not to say I have crews in all my locos. So my railway is "wrong".
I have just caught up with this topic and agree it is an interesting discussion.
For anyone interested in more, there is a good deal of this type of discussion on the NGgarden group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NGgarden/ . It's members only so to read the discussions you will need to join. I quote from the home page:
[font="georgia, serif"]"We want to explore the scope for greater realism in our modelling. We believe that there is a lot of potential for reflecting real railway practice in the larger outdoor scales, and we believe that the aesthetic element is as important as the engineering.
[/font][font="georgia, serif"]This group is therefore dedicated to modelling rather than model engineering (other groups are available for that); experimentation and new thinking, whether concerning the trains themselves, structures and landscape, operation, or photography. We welcome speculative contributions as well as factual ones." [/font]
[font="georgia, serif"][/font]
There are strong views about figures on there, both for and against.
I will take up Spike's challenge on garden railway pictures which don't betray their origins. I agree it is usually possible to find details which betray them. The best I can hope for at the moment is a "first glance" reaction... but I'm working on it.
As ever, more at http://www.evensfordandmidland.co.uk/ < Link To www.evensfordandmidland.co.uk
For anyone interested in more, there is a good deal of this type of discussion on the NGgarden group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NGgarden/ . It's members only so to read the discussions you will need to join. I quote from the home page:
[font="georgia, serif"]"We want to explore the scope for greater realism in our modelling. We believe that there is a lot of potential for reflecting real railway practice in the larger outdoor scales, and we believe that the aesthetic element is as important as the engineering.
[/font][font="georgia, serif"]This group is therefore dedicated to modelling rather than model engineering (other groups are available for that); experimentation and new thinking, whether concerning the trains themselves, structures and landscape, operation, or photography. We welcome speculative contributions as well as factual ones." [/font]
[font="georgia, serif"][/font]
There are strong views about figures on there, both for and against.
I will take up Spike's challenge on garden railway pictures which don't betray their origins. I agree it is usually possible to find details which betray them. The best I can hope for at the moment is a "first glance" reaction... but I'm working on it.
As ever, more at http://www.evensfordandmidland.co.uk/ < Link To www.evensfordandmidland.co.uk
Cheeky Monkey said:Agreed Chas i love the ili fellows
Is it the moustaches Steve?
[/quote]
Nope the brown eyes not in to hairsuit
vsmith said:
There is another aspect to think about.
This is a little trick the US outline HO "prototype modellers" use.
If you have a (US) train with fine detailed locos and caboose, put your most detailed cars toward the ends. The Blue Box Athearn (basic) cars hidden in the middle of the train will never be noticed.
On the layout, superdetail and put interiors in a couple of your main stations, signal boxes, and a store or two. The observer will be of the assumption that every building is the same.
So put the Preiser figures in the foreground......and the cheap kiddie toys in the passenger cars that zip by.
EDIT to complete a thought...
well i read pauls original post
and
its absolutely correct-nice figures add to the realism-they make all the difference-evn to the guy with a pink box car and mauve 2017-not too mention a D&RGW forney (my point is theres often some loose application of moldeing guidelines)
but
i recall many play sessions with my son with playmobil figures -cowboys, knights, pirates, and other figures-all with the little playmo details-and we had a great time with developing stories and setting up 'realistic' scenes', markets, docks, forts, etc, some with a combination of playmo and LGB trains
i think its all relative-the cup isnt half empty until you realize what you'e missing-despite having the 'good stuff' i also really enoy playmbil (and still find it interesting if no longer an active interest since the kid's 20 now)
and
i realize too that most people in the world (if not our chosen hobby) cannot possibly afford figures as pricey as Preiser-heck it took me a while to accept it-
btw-some great photos illustrating the importance of nice figures and nice paint jobs
and
its absolutely correct-nice figures add to the realism-they make all the difference-evn to the guy with a pink box car and mauve 2017-not too mention a D&RGW forney (my point is theres often some loose application of moldeing guidelines)
but
i recall many play sessions with my son with playmobil figures -cowboys, knights, pirates, and other figures-all with the little playmo details-and we had a great time with developing stories and setting up 'realistic' scenes', markets, docks, forts, etc, some with a combination of playmo and LGB trains
i think its all relative-the cup isnt half empty until you realize what you'e missing-despite having the 'good stuff' i also really enoy playmbil (and still find it interesting if no longer an active interest since the kid's 20 now)
and
i realize too that most people in the world (if not our chosen hobby) cannot possibly afford figures as pricey as Preiser-heck it took me a while to accept it-
btw-some great photos illustrating the importance of nice figures and nice paint jobs
It's an interesting discussion that Paul started. His photos are always inspiring and I can see his point in using realistic figures for the "beauty" shots. I don't necessarily agree that it's important that we strive for realism so that people who view our photos see them as modeling rather than toys. Playing is OK and we shouldn't let the kids have all the fun. I sometimes get the impression that some of the model RR community, in all scales, are critical of non-realistic modeling because they are embarrassed to be perceived as just playing with trains. There were a number of articles a few years back in Garden Railways Magazine about "2nd generation garden railroading" that implied that we would eventually all grow up and have a precise theme, scale and method of operating our garden railways. I found this to be more than a little bit pretentious. According to those authors my railway should have a legitimate "Reason for being". Well mine does - it's purpose is to make me smile - and if that means having a dragon in the castle or running trains round and round while I have a pint then I'm a happy guy.
I do try to make some attempt to create a realistic atmosphere in some of the areas of my layout. The plants in the garden are never going to be exact scale replicas of real one's but I'm content if the colour and texture add to the scene. It's important to me that the overall effect is still a garden.
If the entire layout were super detailled it would look to me like an indoor layout transplanted outside. Sort of like a big green wedding cake. So what I try to do is have just a few places, like the stations, that are as realistic as I can make them. These become the backdrops for most of my photographs.
In other places I have some fun. The only reason that there are no Playmobile figures here is that Smog the dragon ate them before I could get the camera out
So it's possible to have multiple railways in one garden. I remember seeing a garden railway in a magazine that had European buildings at one end, North American at the other and no scenery at all in the middle. Brilliant! You could run whatever you wanted and always have an appropriate background.
Finally, I gave up worrying about scale a long time ago
Have fun and keep the good ideas coming.
I do try to make some attempt to create a realistic atmosphere in some of the areas of my layout. The plants in the garden are never going to be exact scale replicas of real one's but I'm content if the colour and texture add to the scene. It's important to me that the overall effect is still a garden.
If the entire layout were super detailled it would look to me like an indoor layout transplanted outside. Sort of like a big green wedding cake. So what I try to do is have just a few places, like the stations, that are as realistic as I can make them. These become the backdrops for most of my photographs.
In other places I have some fun. The only reason that there are no Playmobile figures here is that Smog the dragon ate them before I could get the camera out
So it's possible to have multiple railways in one garden. I remember seeing a garden railway in a magazine that had European buildings at one end, North American at the other and no scenery at all in the middle. Brilliant! You could run whatever you wanted and always have an appropriate background.
Finally, I gave up worrying about scale a long time ago
Have fun and keep the good ideas coming.
johnsaintjim said:
Hi Graham.
Good try but my eye is drawn straight away to the oversize rail and ballast.
......only kidding.......I'm not a rivet counter, yet.
Anyway!..........great pic and it does do better than first glance
As I said before, I don't care what people put in their pics.......fine if anyone wants realism but my
interpretation of realism is everything would have to be exact, no exceptions........
and I don't want to go down that road of rivet counting it would spoil the fun of playing trains.
spike said:johnsaintjim said:
Hi Graham.
Good try but my eye is drawn straight away to the oversize rail and ballast.
......only kidding.......I'm not a rivet counter, yet.
Anyway!..........great pic and it does do better than first glance
As I said before, I don't care what people put in their pics.......fine if anyone wants realism but my
interpretation of realism is everything would have to be exact, no exceptions........
and I don't want to go down that road of rivet counting it would spoil the fun of playing trains.
Thanks Spike, I agree about the ballast and the rails. I'm working on both. I would add the lack of fence, the fact that it's an L&B train on 3 foot track, etc, etc. Plenty to go at.