Coaches for the Stirling Single

Fred2179G

Fred2179G

Registered
20 Apr 2017
398
87
USA
So the b&w picture that showed 3 different coaches was NOT GNR? I thought the GNR was the only line that had the singles.
So if indeed that picture is indeed on the GNR, then you are telling me that there were Midland coaches used on the GNR?
Again I thought you stated that these 2 railroads were in dire competition and the Midland coaches were not on the GNR.
Confused.
Greg
GNR's Chief Engineer, Patrick Stirling, built these particular Singles. (But most railways had them in the late 1800s.)
Despite the competition (mostly for access to London, the Capital,) the MR and the GNR were also partners in some areas - in particular the "Midland & Great Northern Joint Railway".
Midland and Great Northern Joint Railway - Wikipedia
So the competition wasn't so "dire" (did I say that?)

Here's a nice teak coach labelled "Midland and Gt Northern". The various company's rolling stock got around the system, as freight cars do in the US.

M&GNR.jpg


[" Built in 1887 for the Great Northern Railway and transferred to the Midland & Great Northern Railway in 1903, this is a five compartment 3rd class 4-wheel carriage that spent 60 years as a bungalow following its withdrawal from service. Fully restored, it now forms part of the North Norfolk Railway's vintage train. "]


In addition, many railways shared "running rights" - much as Amtrak runs trains on CSX, etc., or as Canadian Pacific runs trains on certain US roads. So it would not be unusual for a M&GNJR train to Norwich from London to start on the GNR in London with a mix of GNR and MR coaches, and then it would branch off to the Norfolk area. It might even switch engines at some intermediate station. Or an express to York might be run with Midland and GNR coaches under the auspices of the Midland Railway timetable.

Not so confusing, and also not as simple as the US RRs.
 
Neil Robinson

Neil Robinson

Registered
24 Oct 2009
9,415
86
N W Leicestershire
Your confusion is understandable and this post may well increase it!
Several other lines, including the Midland, had notable singles with one example preserved.
Take a look at this clip from 5.00 for almost one minute,

The Midland and the Great Northern were in competition for traffic from some areas of the country but actively co operated in others. Indeed the Midland's access to London for the last 35 or so miles was over Great Northern tracks for about ten years. However, understandably, the Great Northern prioritised its own trains so the Midland built their own line.


Edit, post composed whilst Fred was also posting! :)
 
P

Paul M

Registered
25 Oct 2016
4,152
550
56
Royston
Your confusion is understandable and this post may well increase it!
Several other lines, including the Midland, had notable singles with one example preserved.
Take a look at this clip from 5.00 for almost one minute,

The Midland and the Great Northern were in competition for traffic from some areas of the country but actively co operated in others. Indeed the Midland's access to London for the last 35 or so miles was over Great Northern tracks for about ten years. However, understandably, the Great Northern prioritised its own trains so the Midland built their own line.


Edit, post composed whilst Fred was also posting! :)
Which is history in its self with the Settle -Carlisle line
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
16,365
1,110
71
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
So the b&w picture that showed 3 different coaches was NOT GNR? I thought the GNR was the only line that had the singles.

So if indeed that picture is indeed on the GNR, then you are telling me that there were Midland coaches used on the GNR?

Again I thought you stated that these 2 railroads were in dire competition and the Midland coaches were not on the GNR.

Confused.


Greg
Dates and lines can be confusing. It is a fact that originally the Midland accessed London via the GNR at Hitchin before the Midland Line London Extension was built to London St.Pancras. Also quite likely that Midlands Coaches got to places North of York but that would likely be by NE Trains. But then there would likely be workings around Peterborough and Doncaster of Midland Coaches. My view of that Single is that it is somewhere between Hitchin and Kings Cross with those Midland Coaches either attached or to be detached at Hitchin.
 
tramwayknowledge

tramwayknowledge

Tramway Modelling
22 Oct 2011
35
6
Fife
Our US friends seem to be getting themselves into something of a fankle over types and appearance of the types of coaching stock that usually appeared with GNR Stirling Single locomotives. It is important to consider that you are not attempting to produce scale models, but rather general representations of the train. In the hope this will be a little clearer let's distinguish railway routes, with their railway companies first and then the rolling stock;

There were three main routes from London to the principal cities of Scotland;

- the West Coast route, the railway companies that formed this route were the London &North Western Railway (London to Carlisle) and the Caledonian Railway (Carlisle to Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen)

- the Midland route, the railway companies that formed this route were the Midland Railway (London to Carlisle) and then the North British Railway (Carlisle to Edinburgh and Aberdeen) and the Glasgow & South Western (Carlisle to Glasgow)

- the East Coast Route, the railway companies that formed this route were the Great Northern Railway (London to York), the North Eastern Railway (York to Berwick) and the North British Railway (Berwick to Edinburgh and Aberdeen)

Each company built and operated its own trains, but they also operated Joint Stock trains;

- the West Cast Joint Stock was built by the LNWR at its own works, broadly followed LNWR designs and was painted in a livery close to LNWR colours (white upper panels and 'purple-brown' (a colour similar to a very dark aubergine ) lower panels).

- the Midland route had two sets of stock; Midland & North British Joint Stock and Midland and GSWR Joint Stock, all this stock was built by the Midland Railway, broadly followed Midland designs and was painted in a livery close to the Midland's (a rich, deep Crimson Lake...NOT 'Maroon' - which is much duller.
(The Midland also ran Pullman cars but we won't go into that just now)

- the East Coast Joint Stock was built by the Great Northern and broadly followed GNR designs an was made of VARNISHED Teak. Teak does not take or hold paint very well, but weathers well if kept varnished, most of the other rolling stock in the British Isles was built of mahogany, which takes and retains paint well but fades and deteriorates badly if exposed to weather and sunlight.

To add to the fun of trains on the East Coast Route the other two Companies had painted stock; the NER had a Crimson-Red said to 'resemble fresh Raspberry jam' - no, I have no idea either, but I suspect that it was slightly more purple-blue than the Midland colour - the North British used Crimson.

So, a train running along the southern end of the East Coast route could have been;

- pure GNR, with teak carriages
- ECJS express, with teak carriages
- mixed stopping train of teak GNR and red NER carriages.

And then we have the second week of August, the week leading up to the 'Glorious 12th' - the start of the grouse shooting season. This was immensely popular in Victorian times with trains running in duplicate or triplicate sections, with through carriages from everywhere, family saloons, private saloons going North. You name it, if it had wheels it might be pressed into service.

Is your brain hurting yet?

Now we come to styles of carriage (please not that this is a very complex matter and what follows is a superficial survey):;

The bog standard, bottom of the range number would be the suburban or rural 4 wheeler. These coaches would be pure compartment vehicles i.e. the coach would be divided transversely into small compartments with a bench seat across either side, the side walls would generally have a window/door/window arrangement. British trains were generally two class, Second Class had been dropped in the late 1870s-80s by most railways, on most trains...so we only had First Class and Third Class. Third Class compartments would be from 5ft 6in to 6ft-odd between partitions and Firsts around 7ft to 8ft

Next up would be 'main line' carriages on 4 or 6 wheels. These were originally full compartment affairs, but in the last quarter of the c19 the desire for more luxury and the desire to speed up services by eliminating long "comfort breaks" at intermediate stations lead to the introduction of lavatories. At first these were located in little cubicles off compartments and only a percentage of compartments (and passengers) would be served. Later a side corridor was introduced and this served lavatories at each end of the coach. As train speeds increased the ride quality of 4 and 6 wheel coaches was unsatisfactory and from the 1880s onwards bogie coaches were introduced, these were also longer at from 45ft to 55ft long.

The GNR extended the front rank service of some of their six wheel coaches by articulating them in pairs on three bogies. They make very attractive units.

Top of the range were the 'Grandes Express' , chiefly provided by the three Anglo-Scottish routes, the Great Western Railway after 1892, the Caledonian and a number of other companies. These coaches grew in size and weight to become 57ft - 70ft in length, with full corridors, bellows connections between carriages, lavatories, dining cars, etc. everything expected on a train de-Luxe, except Observation cars, we only ever had 5 of them and 3 were Pullmans. Coach roofs crew from the low arc or 'cove roof' to high clerestories in the gas light era, most companies, including the Midland) favoured the straight-through clerestory (I think thats a Monitor roof' in the US) but both the WCJS and ECJS had a long period with swept down, Pullman style clerestories. In the early c20 almost every company moved over to the high 'elliptical roof'.

So, what would a Stirling Single be hauling? In later condition as depicted by your model it would probably be hauling some ECJS teak, clerestory coaches, many of them on 6 wheel bogies. On busy days the train might be strengthened by some GNR 6 wheelers and possibly a 4 wheel van or two. If it was a purely GNR train then it would probably be 6 wheel GNR coaches and a van or two. The ratio of Thirds to Firsts would probably be 1 x First Class to 3 x Third Class, but that's before we consider the complexities of Composite Coaches, Brake Carriages, through carriages and slip carriages...let alone Newspaper Vans, Luggage Vans, Pigeon Vans, Closed Carriage Trucks, Travelling Post Offices etc......

Nearly there......

The Midland and Great Northern Joint Railway was a predominantly cross-country undertaking, away from the major cities, although it did enjoy increased Holiday traffic to the seaside as paid vacations became more prevalent. As a 'poor relation' of its owning companies it tended to get hand-me-down rolling stock from both the Midland and the GNR. Thus its trains were a mixture of faded crimson andNER into the LNER Group. The LMS replaced some of the clapped-out Midland stock with ex LNWR stock (by then in LMS Crimson) and the LNER added some more modern teak stock. In the 1930s the two operators decided to abandon the Joint Board and let each of the owners take responsibility for different aspects of the line. The LNER got the carriage stock and painted some Crimson stock in brown to match the teak stock. In 1948 the railways were nationalised and BR slapped Maroon over all secondary stock. This explains the mixture of things seen in M&GNJR pictures.

Here endeth the Lesson...Now go and have a nice cup of tea




Dates and lines can be confusing. It is a fact that originally the Midland accessed London via the GNR at Hitchin before the Midland Line London Extension was built to London St.Pancras. Also quite likely that Midlands Coaches got to places North of York but that would likely be by NE Trains. But then there would likely be workings around Peterborough and Doncaster of Midland Coaches. My view of that Single is that it is somewhere between Hitchin and Kings Cross with those Midland Coaches either attached or to be detached at Hitchin.
 
P

Paul M

Registered
25 Oct 2016
4,152
550
56
Royston
Greg, don't forget there's a prototype for everything. Especially on British railways
 
F

Flying15

Registered
12 May 2015
67
82
London
Our US friends seem to be getting themselves into something of a fankle over types and appearance of the types of coaching stock that usually appeared with GNR Stirling Single locomotives. It is important to consider that you are not attempting to produce scale models, but rather general representations of the train. In the hope this will be a little clearer let's distinguish railway routes, with their railway companies first and then the rolling stock;

There were three main routes from London to the principal cities of Scotland;

- the West Coast route, the railway companies that formed this route were the London &North Western Railway (London to Carlisle) and the Caledonian Railway (Carlisle to Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen)

- the Midland route, the railway companies that formed this route were the Midland Railway (London to Carlisle) and then the North British Railway (Carlisle to Edinburgh and Aberdeen) and the Glasgow & South Western (Carlisle to Glasgow)

- the East Coast Route, the railway companies that formed this route were the Great Northern Railway (London to York), the North Eastern Railway (York to Berwick) and the North British Railway (Berwick to Edinburgh and Aberdeen)

Each company built and operated its own trains, but they also operated Joint Stock trains;

- the West Cast Joint Stock was built by the LNWR at its own works, broadly followed LNWR designs and was painted in a livery close to LNWR colours (white upper panels and 'purple-brown' (a colour similar to a very dark aubergine ) lower panels).

- the Midland route had two sets of stock; Midland & North British Joint Stock and Midland and GSWR Joint Stock, all this stock was built by the Midland Railway, broadly followed Midland designs and was painted in a livery close to the Midland's (a rich, deep Crimson Lake...NOT 'Maroon' - which is much duller.
(The Midland also ran Pullman cars but we won't go into that just now)

- the East Coast Joint Stock was built by the Great Northern and broadly followed GNR designs an was made of VARNISHED Teak. Teak does not take or hold paint very well, but weathers well if kept varnished, most of the other rolling stock in the British Isles was built of mahogany, which takes and retains paint well but fades and deteriorates badly if exposed to weather and sunlight.

To add to the fun of trains on the East Coast Route the other two Companies had painted stock; the NER had a Crimson-Red said to 'resemble fresh Raspberry jam' - no, I have no idea either, but I suspect that it was slightly more purple-blue than the Midland colour - the North British used Crimson.

So, a train running along the southern end of the East Coast route could have been;

- pure GNR, with teak carriages
- ECJS express, with teak carriages
- mixed stopping train of teak GNR and red NER carriages.

And then we have the second week of August, the week leading up to the 'Glorious 12th' - the start of the grouse shooting season. This was immensely popular in Victorian times with trains running in duplicate or triplicate sections, with through carriages from everywhere, family saloons, private saloons going North. You name it, if it had wheels it might be pressed into service.

Is your brain hurting yet?

Now we come to styles of carriage (please not that this is a very complex matter and what follows is a superficial survey):;

The bog standard, bottom of the range number would be the suburban or rural 4 wheeler. These coaches would be pure compartment vehicles i.e. the coach would be divided transversely into small compartments with a bench seat across either side, the side walls would generally have a window/door/window arrangement. British trains were generally two class, Second Class had been dropped in the late 1870s-80s by most railways, on most trains...so we only had First Class and Third Class. Third Class compartments would be from 5ft 6in to 6ft-odd between partitions and Firsts around 7ft to 8ft

Next up would be 'main line' carriages on 4 or 6 wheels. These were originally full compartment affairs, but in the last quarter of the c19 the desire for more luxury and the desire to speed up services by eliminating long "comfort breaks" at intermediate stations lead to the introduction of lavatories. At first these were located in little cubicles off compartments and only a percentage of compartments (and passengers) would be served. Later a side corridor was introduced and this served lavatories at each end of the coach. As train speeds increased the ride quality of 4 and 6 wheel coaches was unsatisfactory and from the 1880s onwards bogie coaches were introduced, these were also longer at from 45ft to 55ft long.

The GNR extended the front rank service of some of their six wheel coaches by articulating them in pairs on three bogies. They make very attractive units.

Top of the range were the 'Grandes Express' , chiefly provided by the three Anglo-Scottish routes, the Great Western Railway after 1892, the Caledonian and a number of other companies. These coaches grew in size and weight to become 57ft - 70ft in length, with full corridors, bellows connections between carriages, lavatories, dining cars, etc. everything expected on a train de-Luxe, except Observation cars, we only ever had 5 of them and 3 were Pullmans. Coach roofs crew from the low arc or 'cove roof' to high clerestories in the gas light era, most companies, including the Midland) favoured the straight-through clerestory (I think thats a Monitor roof' in the US) but both the WCJS and ECJS had a long period with swept down, Pullman style clerestories. In the early c20 almost every company moved over to the high 'elliptical roof'.

So, what would a Stirling Single be hauling? In later condition as depicted by your model it would probably be hauling some ECJS teak, clerestory coaches, many of them on 6 wheel bogies. On busy days the train might be strengthened by some GNR 6 wheelers and possibly a 4 wheel van or two. If it was a purely GNR train then it would probably be 6 wheel GNR coaches and a van or two. The ratio of Thirds to Firsts would probably be 1 x First Class to 3 x Third Class, but that's before we consider the complexities of Composite Coaches, Brake Carriages, through carriages and slip carriages...let alone Newspaper Vans, Luggage Vans, Pigeon Vans, Closed Carriage Trucks, Travelling Post Offices etc......

Nearly there......

The Midland and Great Northern Joint Railway was a predominantly cross-country undertaking, away from the major cities, although it did enjoy increased Holiday traffic to the seaside as paid vacations became more prevalent. As a 'poor relation' of its owning companies it tended to get hand-me-down rolling stock from both the Midland and the GNR. Thus its trains were a mixture of faded crimson andNER into the LNER Group. The LMS replaced some of the clapped-out Midland stock with ex LNWR stock (by then in LMS Crimson) and the LNER added some more modern teak stock. In the 1930s the two operators decided to abandon the Joint Board and let each of the owners take responsibility for different aspects of the line. The LNER got the carriage stock and painted some Crimson stock in brown to match the teak stock. In 1948 the railways were nationalised and BR slapped Maroon over all secondary stock. This explains the mixture of things seen in M&GNJR pictures.

Here endeth the Lesson...Now go and have a nice cup of tea
Excellent and simple distillation of the issue of what you might have seen behind a Stirling Single
I’d doubt that you would have seen a Stirling Single on M&GN lines and stock except possibly if it was used on an excursion/special.
The only thing I’d add to all of this would be to recommend “Historic Carriage Drawings in 4 mm Scale” as a source if you want to build models etc
Within the extensive collection of carriage plans in this book are examples of GNR 6 wheelers (their articulated versions also) an ECJtS clerestory as well as plans of the competitors types on the West Coast and Midland
Happy Modelling
 
Fred2179G

Fred2179G

Registered
20 Apr 2017
398
87
USA
The only thing I’d add to all of this would be to recommend “Historic Carriage Drawings in 4 mm Scale” as a source if you want to build models etc
I'll second that. I used it for inspiration for my stretched coach.
 
tramwayknowledge

tramwayknowledge

Tramway Modelling
22 Oct 2011
35
6
Fife
I'll second that. I used it for inspiration for my stretched coach.
Yes it's a good book. The only problem is that reading it makes you feel like a wee laddie in a sweetie shop - you will want at least one of everything