Building 4-wheel wagons

gregh

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I?ve always built my own wagons, so maybe someone is interested in my method. Theses are my latest 4 wheelers. They are just flat wagons or wooden sided. I?ve standardized on a 200mm long wagon with 100mm wheelbase (The old 8? type).
First off, the hard part is that you need wheels. I used to turn my own, but luckily I have some poor misguided, (rich) friends who replace all their plastic wheels with metal ones. So I get the plastic ones. You may have to try some hobby shops to buy some.

Frames[/H1] I make a simple frame from ?lattice wood? It?s the stuff used for making timber lattice ? about 38mm x 8mm. I buy it from the lattice maker for about $2.30 per metre. (It?s what I use for sleepers and for many other uses!). I cut a 260 mm piece in half and shape two 100mm long pieces for my ?dumb? buffers. (I use hook and chain couplings ? to save money) and two 160mm pieces for the underframe. Lay them on a piece of paper and glue them together as shown on the right in the pic. It?s important to have sufficient space between them for the wheel sets to fit in ? min 56mm.
46084cb501f64cf0981470343a3c95d9.jpg


Then I use either scribed 3 ply or coffee stirrers as the floor. I brush on black shoe polish to give weathered wood colouring.

To make the sides, I use 3mm thick balsa. I scribe it all before cutting out using an o;d empty ball point pen Glued to the wagon floor with PVA wood glue. The metal strips are old dark photographs, with rivets embossed with a ?tracers wheel? and glued on with contact adhesive. There?s not a lot of detail ? I subcribe to the 10? rule.


Axle boxes[/H1]
Now for the axle boxes. I use 18mm x 18mm x 1mm plastic angle from the hardware shop, cut into 12mm wide pieces. For my 1/8? axles, I drill 5/32?.

Then I cut ?triangular? pieces from 1.5mm styrene and contact glue to the angle. This allows me to used styrene glue for all the rest of the work.
1cad772761ed47f1a08acc22682c69f0.jpg

Now I cut strips of 1.5mm styrene 9mm wide and glue together. Then cut into 9mm squares (x 3mm thick) for the axle box, and glue to the triangular bits, centrally over the holes. So there?s is now about 5.5mm of styrene to support the axle. When dry, drill right through the lot.

For the springs, I make a long strip of laminated 0.5mm styrene and slice off the 5mm wide springs and glue above the axle boxes.
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Then I use a hole punch on some scrap 0.5 mm styrene to get the approx 5mm dia ?holes? to cover the axle box holes and glue them on.
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To mount the axle boxes, I screw the 2 on one side and then just nail and glue the other side of the wagon. This allows the wheels to be removed if necessary. I find I can nail more accurately than drill holes for screws, so I screw the one side first and then nail the other side keeping the axles square. This method gives a floor height of around 38mm which may be a tad low so I put some 1.5 mm styrene under the axle mounts.
Here?s a pic from below. The black strip of 40mm wide steel is to add some weight. Even with it, the wagons only weigh around 300g. It?s about the most expensive bit at around $3 worth.
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And here?s the finished products. Total cost for each one probably less than $6 (excl the wheels.)

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They can now join their 20-odd cousins in revenue service.
 

Madman

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Very nice work. I have one question about equalization of the wheels. How do your cars track? I have, through trial and error over the years, found that long wheel base, four wheel cars do not like slightly uneven track. The LGB 435 mm long freight cars derail at various locations on my railway. The 300 mm cars do better, although on occasion will derail. the LGB Toy Train cars do the best. And The small field type cars are by far the best runners. So I have converted all of my European rolling stock to eight wheel two truck configurations. Basically, the shortest wheel base possible. This has eliminated all derailments, save for the odd stick or stone that gets onto the track now and then.
 

gregh

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Madman said:
Very nice work. I have one question about equalization of the wheels. How do your cars track? I have, through trial and error over the years, found that long wheel base, four wheel cars do not like slightly uneven track. The LGB 435 mm long freight cars derail at various locations on my railway. The 300 mm cars do better, although on occasion will derail. the LGB Toy Train cars do the best. And The small field type cars are by far the best runners. So I have converted all of my European rolling stock to eight wheel two truck configurations. Basically, the shortest wheel base possible. This has eliminated all derailments, save for the odd stick or stone that gets onto the track now and then.
That's why I'm using 100mm wheelbase (200mm long wagon). I originally built a few with 150 and 120mm wheelbase. They are a bit more likely to derail, but not too bad. I can only imagine how 400mm long cars go!
 

hagen

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The trick to good tracking is three-point-suspension. Also known as the three-legged-chair approach.

Imagine a four legged chair on uneven floor. You will always get a wobble. With three legs the same chair will be perfectly stable.
So leave one wheelset fixed in the axleboxes and allow the other to move up and down with a solid object at the center of the axle to act as a fulcrum.
But.. it's easier said than done :)
 

gregh

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hagen said:
The trick to good tracking is three-point-suspension. Also known as the three-legged-chair approach.
So leave one wheelset fixed in the axleboxes and allow the other to move up and down with a solid object at the center of the axle to act as a fulcrum.
But.. it's easier said than done :)

I've tried it but my skills obviously weren't up to the task. Caused more problems than it was worth. Wagon wobbled along the track terribly. Here's a pic of my method. It rotates about the screw head you can see in the centre.
a2d54a6471bc47918116d1c80c2c8fa9.jpg
 

hagen

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The other part of the trick is to let the other end wheel set remain fixed. if both are allowed to "tilt" then you effectively have a two-point suspension, a bicycle.
That looks like it could do the job.
 

korm kormsen

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i just make the holes for the aixles on one side of the car ovaloid instead of round.
in a way, that both aixles can move down (from the standard position) on the same side of the car.
i found, that about 1.5 mm is enough slack for my tracks.
basicly it is the three leg system as well.
 

Paulus

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Sorry to dig up this old topic (2010) but I was browsing through the forums searching for inspiration and came across these nice 4 wheelers (I realy like your style of garden railroading Gregh and your website is very inspirational).

I also was inspired by the above mentioned three-point-suspension idea from Hagen and I remember I once had a book about H0 scale in which was described how to make such a suspension for scratch building rolling stock. I vaguely remember how it was made. So I did some experimenting last days and this is what I came up with.

I took a piece of plywood as floor. I draw lines at the desired position of the trucks. Than I draw a line along the longitudinal axis of the plywood. The place where the lines cross is the exact center of the axle truck. Next I took 2 Playmobil 1 axle trucks (but LGB ones will be fine also) and removed the couplers as I wanted the car to be coupled with chains later on instead of the big plastic coupler (I later realized that I better had left the coupler on for testing the car in a later stage...).

To let the trucks have some slack, I placed a small brass rod (about 1,5 mm in diameter) along the longitudinal axle, like this:
20190818_193501small.jpg


Because of the hole in the middle of the axle truck I could glue the little bras rod in place using hot glue without the glue interfering the wobbling of the truck.
To keep the wheelbase in place I bend a piece of somewhat thicker brass rod in a sort of long U shape. The ends are pressed in pre-drilled holes in the floor. The rod falls in to slots in the truck I made with a little file. The rod is also glued in place in a way the glue do not interfere the free wobbling.

20190818_194505small.jpg


This construction gives the truck a slack of several millimeters on both sides which must be enough to tackle the uneven tracks (I hope).

20190818_194448-2-small.jpg



I than glued the second truck in place using hot glue (though the next time I will only use one drip of hot glue to fixate the truck in place and than drill holes for screw through the truck. That way the truck can be replaced more easily when desired). The wheelbase is 120 mm.

20190818_195254small.jpg


At this point the results are promising. The car runs through a curve on my layout that is most notorious for derailments without derailing ... each time.
So, yes, it still does derail now and than on this spot... but it is the worst spot on the layout. It did not derail on other spots.

However I think the derailment are now caused by lack of weight. Some extra weight could be added underneath (low center of gravity).
Also I have tested it only by pushing the car by hand through the curve. It is better to test it while being pulled or pushed by a locomotive. And that was the moment I realized I'd better left the couplers on the truck ;-)
 

korm kormsen

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if your axles do not swivel left/right as well, the 12.5 cm between axles might be a reason for derailing on LGB R1 or R2 curves.
(i found, that 8cm is the maximum for rigid axles on R1)
 

dunnyrail

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Paul,
The method used for Compensation is much as used by 4mm Modellers for their rolling Stock. Locomotives in the smaller scales can be similarly done in the method coined by Mike Sherman in his book about Flexichassis. I used it exclusively on my 0 Gauge Exhibition Layout for both Locomotives and Rolling Stock. The Running was improved no end with no sign of any Wobbles as is normally seen on Rigid Rolling Stock and Locomotives.

However in G when using very tight curves as Korm has mentioned, you have lost the LGB Swivel that gets things round those tight curves. Your suggestion would likely work out well on curves probably in excess of LGB R3 or perhaps 4ft Radius if you can manage that on your line.
 
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ge_rik

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My railbus with a wheelbase of 150mm was a regular derailer until I fitted compensation to the front axles. She'll now even negotiate R1 points successfully. Not tried compensation on wagons though.


Rik
 
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dunnyrail

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My railbus with a wheelbase of 150mm was a regular derailer until I fitted compensation to the front axles. She'll now even negotiate R1 points successfully. Not tried compensation on wagons though.


Rik
My 7mm Col Stephens Railcar had exactly the same floppy (Compensated) Front Wheel Setup. Amazing what a little Compensation does to enhance running. Interestingly the LGB Pig Nosed Railcar and all of its variants have (or had till the recent introductions Marklin) a sort of Compensation. Both Wheel Sets and Motor Drive have it, quite how these Railcars do not flop side to side in their entirety is a piece of LGB Witchcraft I believe.
 

Paulus

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if your axles do not swivel left/right as well, the 12.5 cm between axles might be a reason for derailing on LGB R1 or R2 curves.
(i found, that 8cm is the maximum for rigid axles on R1)

However in G when using very tight curves as Korm has mentioned, you have lost the LGB Swivel that gets things round those tight curves. Your suggestion would likely work out well on curves probably in excess of LGB R3 or perhaps 4ft Radius if you can manage that on your line.

Korm and Dunnyrail you are right!
I removed the fixed truck and used a washer, a screw and a plastic bottle cap to make the truck rotate a bit, like the LGB four wheelers.
And... it worked!!! It runs calm and steady without any problem through the curves and switches, even the bad and uneven spots.

20190825_180035.jpg


20190825_173810.jpg


20190825_184751.jpg
20190825_184742.jpg



20190825_184712.jpg
 

dunnyrail

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Korm and Dunnyrail you are right!
I removed the fixed truck and used a washer, a screw and a plastic bottle cap to make the truck rotate a bit, like the LGB four wheelers.
And... it worked!!! It runs calm and steady without any problem through the curves and switches, even the bad and uneven spots.

20190825_180035.jpg


20190825_173810.jpg


20190825_184751.jpg
20190825_184742.jpg



20190825_184712.jpg
Great thinking to use the Bottle Cap, now we will all be picking the things up on a walk! What a great way to clean up the world, only need to find a use for the rest of the Plastic Bottle. So glad that you found such an ingenious solution to your problem.
 

Paulus

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Great thinking to use the Bottle Cap, now we will all be picking the things up on a walk! What a great way to clean up the world, only need to find a use for the rest of the Plastic Bottle. So glad that you found such an ingenious solution to your problem.
:D:D:D

Actually, I found a good use for the plastic bottles earlier... I had the caps as left overs! ;-)
See: Concrete / styropor balls mixture roadbed (with cola bottles...) - myLargescale.com > Community > Forums
 

dunnyrail

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