Battery v Track power - a personal perspective

[ge_rik]

Pleased to hear that the battery bug has bitten a few more. As you'll have seen from the video, it's not a move I have regretted.

There used to be scare stories on here about the dangers of li-ion batteries. I'm maybe tempting fate, but in the four years or so that I've been using them I've so far had only one thermal runaway - which was entirely my own fault. I was soldering the tags of a couple of 18650 cells and didn't notice that they had shorted themselves together until one of them started getting very very warm. I took it outside where it started fizzing as it vented gas (it wasn't the only one!! ) ....... a couple of minutes later and it stopped fizzing. I left if for a further five minutes in case it decided to do something a bit more spectacular - which it didn't. A bit disappointing really, given all the horror stories.

OK. I'm not saying li-ions are risk-free ....... but, by all accounts, the technology of cylindrical li-ions (which is mostly what's inside laptop computers) seems a lot more stable than floppy-pouched lipos - I have three locos which use those (the rest are cylindrical li-ions).

Rik

 

[Rhinochugger]

Yes, I haven't ventured into Li-on country yet, but may need to if I need some power from a small space.

I have also tended to do R/C on the cheap, something which I expected long term would come round and bight me in the nether regions. I had first used a Saturn 6 ch R/C which could be bought as a Tx / Rx package for £40. By the time I wanted a second battery loco, the Saturn technology has upgraded, and so I could not just buy an Rx for £20, and had to buy another complete package for £40 - I hope you're counting.

Having just done another conversion, Saturn have again upgraded their kit, but a new package is now over £50, so I bought a cheap set from Hong Kong for £19.

So we're talking £100 for 3 R/C locos - probably about break even with some of the bespoke kit that's around

On the negative side - 3 different Tx, so need to know which one to grab, and 3 sets of transmitter batteries

On the plus side, when a young family came to visit the railway yesterday, I could thrust a controller at each youngster and let them control their own train an unexpected bonus.

 

[ge_rik]

So we're talking £100 for 3 R/C locos - probably about break even with some of the bespoke kit that's around
.

And presumably there would be ESCs to buy on top of that. Can start to get pricey.

It is handy though having more than one Tx when visitors come and play.

Rik

 

[Rhinochugger]

And presumably there would be ESCs to buy on top of that. Can start to get pricey.

It is handy though having more than one Tx when visitors come and play.

Rik

Oh yes, that's just the R/C

I've probably spent another £80 ish on ESCs, although one of them is 24v.

Part of the problem with battery power is that it's a bit like buying your first computer - if you knew then what you know now

Equally, the world has moved on in the five years since I did my first battery R/C conversion. Kit is different and smaller, and the combined ESC / Rx wasn't so easily available.

 

[Tony Walsham]

If the Saturn R/C is 2.4 Ghz you do not need 3 x TX's for 3 x locos. You should be able to bind all three locos to one TX.
You would be able to "assign" each loco to any TX in case visitors arrive.

 

[Rhinochugger]

If the Saturn R/C is 2.4 Ghz you do not need 3 x TX's for 3 x locos. You should be able to bind all three locos to one TX.
You would be able to "assign" each loco to any TX in case visitors arrive.

The Saturn is 2.4Ghz, but each generation of TXs doesn't seem to be able to bind with different generation Rxs - even though they are all 2.4Ghz.

I'd have been happy if it were the case that they would all bind, as I have an unused Rx that won't bind with my newer Tx. My earliest Tx (although 2.4 Ghz) has a fault and won't bind with anything other than the original Rx it came with. Unfortunately, being new to the whole concept of R/C, I didn't realise that was the case at the time, so didn't return it under warranty.

The Saturn is 2.4Ghz, but each generation of TXs doesn't seem to be able to bind with different generation Rxs - even though they are all 2.4Ghz.

Probably another disadvantage of going the cheapskate route

Which may not be so cheap in the long run

 

[Tony Walsham]

Once upon a time with AM R/C you could mix and match any brand of Tx with any brand of Rx and any brand of servo.
Nowadays the only things that have general compatibility, are the servos.
Whilst the R/C may all be 2.4 Ghz, when Horizon Hobbies introduced the Spektrum Stuff they made it incompatible with other manufacturers such as Hi-Tec and Futaba. They each have their own protocols.
The most commonly used protocol is DSM2/DSMX. There are a number of after market makers of DSM2/DSMX compatible such as Orange, Lemon and Deltang. They can be inexpensive right up to quite expensive.
Not always a good idea to go with the cheapest option. Especially if the chosen el cheapo stuff is not compatible with anything else.
Likewise don't get sucked into cheapy ESC's. Be sure and check what is the maximum operating voltage the ESC has. The higher the voltage, such as 18 volts for big heavy locos like USAT and Aristo, the more expensive they can become.
Be advised that even though you can get 24 - 30 volt 20 amp, 50 amp and 100 amp Centre OFF ESC's for a reasonable price, they don't all necessarily work well with our locos. Many of them are not smooth at start up. They are not generally used like the way we do, so that can be expected.

 

[Rhinochugger]

Once upon a time with AM R/C you could mix and match any brand of Tx with any brand of Rx and any brand of servo.
Nowadays the only things that have general compatibility, are the servos.
Whilst the R/C may all be 2.4 Ghz, when Horizon Hobbies introduced the Spektrum Stuff they made it incompatible with other manufacturers such as Hi-Tec and Futaba. They each have their own protocols.
The most commonly used protocol is DSM2/DSMX. There are a number of after market makers of DSM2/DSMX compatible such as Orange, Lemon and Deltang. They can be inexpensive right up to quite expensive.
Not always a good idea to go with the cheapest option. Especially if the chosen el cheapo stuff is not compatible with anything else.
Likewise don't get sucked into cheapy ESC's. Be sure and check what is the maximum operating voltage the ESC has. The higher the voltage, such as 18 volts for big heavy locos like USAT and Aristo, the more expensive they can become.
Be advised that even though you can get 24 - 30 volt 20 amp, 50 amp and 100 amp Centre OFF ESC's for a reasonable price, they don't all necessarily work well with our locos. Many of them are not smooth at start up. They are not generally used like the way we do, so that can be expected.

Tony, thanks yeah, the old grey matter works a bit slowly.

It now occurs to me that it is possible that, had I wired the ESC properly in the first place (another iffy saga) I might have been able to pair the Saturn kit

The problem being that, being slightly suspicious about the Saturn, when things didn't work, the ESC wiring was not the first place that I looked to trouble shoot.

Fortunately the 24v ESC is made by a Gauge 1 supplier (Peter Spoerer) who is only a few miles away from me, and the ESC is made for trains - actually, it's pretty smooth.

Peter's kit is good, and I owe him at least a good plug here on the forum. If I hadn't bought the ESC second hand, there would have been no possibility of me wiring it incorrectly due to Peter's plug and play system. As it was, the plugs were gone, and the labels on the wires had come off during the two-year stagnation period of the project (lack of round tuits etc etc).

The other salutary lesson is that the path of a cheapskate is rarely straightforward, and only mildly interesting

 

[artfull dodger]

Very well put. And yes, running live steam can and will help motivate one along to going full battery power. Mine was also helped along by enough failing rail joiners that it was becoming a hassle to keep running track power. That said, track power served me well for nearly 15 years on 2 different railways since we moved back to my home state midway thru my garden railway years. Now, when I start looking at the next locomotive purchase, its with a jaded eye. Can I put my onboard battery power in the locomotive or tender. I refuse to use trailing battery cars. So I chose my engines carefully. Ever advancing battery technology making that choice much easier. Now mine all lack any type of RC control. Just a on/off switch and a charging port to plug in my charger. I am the "set N go" type of garden railroader when it comes to my battery power. I just set them on the rail, hook up the train(unless its my new trolley) and turn them on. Speed is preset by my choice of battery and it always a nice sedate "narrow gauge" speed. If I want to shunt trains, then I get out my manual control Fowler live steam engine. Its all "hands on" and a whole bunch of fun in its own right. But after a long and stressfull day at work, I am usually not in the mood to deal with live steam. But a nice battery powered trolley, with a golden glowing headlight, interior lights and red tail light circling my small railway as I eat my dinner at the outdoor table is very relaxing. After an hour or so of that, my nerves and senses have calmed down and I feel much better. Mike the Aspie P.S. Once my bank account recovers from the Slo-mo for my Fowler, I will be hitting Tony up for one of his RCS controlers for live steam. I do not care for the big "old school" twin stick radios. Just one more "thing" I have to pack seperate when traveling to a steam up. One of his little hand helds is just perfect and can be packed in my loco carry case!

 

[Madman]

I originally used trailing battery and R/C cars. This year, I have installed G Scale Graphics equipment in several locos. I must say it frees up a few things. All of my locos that have battery power use GSG's Railboss 4. It has a nice small hand held transmitter. The movement is very responsive to the commands. On of my locos, an LGB 2017, has GSG's Magnetic Critter Control. No R/C, just a tiny reed switch on top of the tender that's activated by a hand held magnet. I like to use this loco when I want to just sit and watch a train navigate my railway.

 

[ge_rik]

Like you both, I prefer to have everything installed onboard the loco. I can see the attraction of having one trail car which can then be plugged into a number of different locos, but as all my locos are tank engines and I often run end to end, and i do a fair bit of shunting, then a trail car would be a bit of a nuisance.

It's amazing what can be squeezed into even the smallest of locos - eg https://riksrailway.blogspot.fr/2015/06/how-i-constructed-plate-frame-simplex.html ( the Simplex loco mentioned in the video). Not only does this have batteries and full r/c, it has sound.

Rik

 

[Martino]

Having been unable to run my railway for most of this year due to consistent problems with lightning which eventually fried my track power equipment and then my own health (which put the kybosh on working outside when temperatures were in the 90-100F range) I decided to flog any still working Digitrax kit and convert to battery power using AirWire, so that I could keep my existing locos with Zimo sound boards etc.

I had the first loco converted by Don Sweet of Remote Control Systems of New England, as I had no idea how to start. He did a brilliant job.

The loco, a Bachmann 2-4-2T (essentially a Lyn, but in South Bucks livery) arrived yesterday.

What a change! I just blew off the track with my leaf blower and off we went. No track cleaning, and the track hasn’t been cleaned since April! No hesitation on bad joints. No hesitation on points. Amazing.

Everything is smooth as butter. Can’t believe it.

I even popped out this evening and had a 20 min running session with no preparation. Perfect. Then just brought the stuff in and switched off the loco. No need to disconnect the whole shebang as I used to have to.

I loved my Railway before, but it was a hassle so much of the time. I’m sure I'm going to have some issues coming up, but for the moment I’m back enthused. Just have to save up to convert the rest of my locos.....

 

[GAP]

Having been unable to run my railway for most of this year due to consistent problems with lightning which eventually fried my track power equipment and then my own health (which put the kybosh on working outside when temperatures were in the 90-100F range) I decided to flog any still working Digitrax kit and convert to battery power using AirWire, so that I could keep my existing locos with Zimo sound boards etc.

I had the first loco converted by Don Sweet of Remote Control Systems of New England, as I had no idea how to start. He did a brilliant job.

The loco, a Bachmann 2-4-2T (essentially a Lyn, but in South Bucks livery) arrived yesterday.

What a change! I just blew off the track with my leaf blower and off we went. No track cleaning, and the track hasn’t been cleaned since April! No hesitation on bad joints. No hesitation on points. Amazing.

Everything is smooth as butter. Can’t believe it.

I even popped out this evening and had a 20 min running session with no preparation. Perfect. Then just brought the stuff in and switched off the loco. No need to disconnect the whole shebang as I used to have to.

I loved my Railway before, but it was a hassle so much of the time. I’m sure I'm going to have some issues coming up, but for the moment I’m back enthused. Just have to save up to convert the rest of my locos.....

Welcome to the Dark Side of Garden Railways young Padawan once all Locos are converted your journey will be complete and you will never look back.

 

[PhilP]

"The force was strong with that one.."
"Now, you must work with us to convert the rest of 'the clan'!"
Cue: asthmatic wheezing..

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Perfectly happy with my Zimo, and 12/20 amps and 24 volts on the rails that lets me run forever, no battery charging.

I don't have lightning strikes, and with stainless rails, nothing goes wrong and there is no track cleaning.

It's a delight to run whatever I want whenever I want, for as long as I want, and smoke and sound are not a running time concern.No trail cars, no problems with small locos.

To each his own. Oh, and it cost me less than battery would have with the same features.

Greg

 

[Gavin Sowry]

It's a delight to run whatever I want whenever I want, for as long as I want, and smoke and sound are not a running time concern.

Greg

I quite agree.

I have reluctantly 'tried' a bit of battery power..... just too much hassle. I have a reefer with batteries, and an Aristo Basic Train Engineer for control in another.
Sort of works OK with my Critter, but the FA-1 cuts out. I think it's the BTE shutting down because it is trying to draw too much power (or something like that).
So, for away games, it will be the Critter,and 4-5 reefers The aerial situation with the BTE doesn't help, either. Might play around with that to see if I can get a better control range.
Let's just say, I've found battery power frustrating.

For the technos out there who are offering help (in the usual GSC way), my power source is two 7.2V (in series) 3300 Ni-MH cells, controlled through the BTE. What am I doing wrong.
Please, don't go suggesting 'fancy' control systems costing the price of a loco or two... all I want to do is power up, power down, stop, and reverse.

 

[stockers]

multiply that hassle by 30 and -

 

[Paul M]

I quite agree.

I have reluctantly 'tried' a bit of battery power..... just too much hassle. I have a reefer with batteries, and an Aristo Basic Train Engineer for control in another.
Sort of works OK with my Critter, but the FA-1 cuts out. I think it's the BTE shutting down because it is trying to draw too much power (or something like that).
So, for away games, it will be the Critter,and 4-5 reefers The aerial situation with the BTE doesn't help, either. Might play around with that to see if I can get a better control range.
Let's just say, I've found battery power frustrating.

For the technos out there who are offering help (in the usual GSC way), my power source is two 7.2V (in series) 3300 Ni-MH cells, controlled through the BTE. What am I doing wrong.
Please, don't go suggesting 'fancy' control systems costing the price of a loco or two... all I want to do is power up, power down, stop, and reverse.

You're probably right about lack of power to increase the available amps try 2 more batteries in parallel. I think that's right, no doubt you'll be told if I'm wrong!

 

[GAP]

I quite agree.

I have reluctantly 'tried' a bit of battery power..... just too much hassle. I have a reefer with batteries, and an Aristo Basic Train Engineer for control in another.
Sort of works OK with my Critter, but the FA-1 cuts out. I think it's the BTE shutting down because it is trying to draw too much power (or something like that).
So, for away games, it will be the Critter,and 4-5 reefers The aerial situation with the BTE doesn't help, either. Might play around with that to see if I can get a better control range.
Let's just say, I've found battery power frustrating.

For the technos out there who are offering help (in the usual GSC way), my power source is two 7.2V (in series) 3300 Ni-MH cells, controlled through the BTE. What am I doing wrong.
Please, don't go suggesting 'fancy' control systems costing the price of a loco or two... all I want to do is power up, power down, stop, and reverse.

Gavin I am using Pololu Simple Motor Controllers in 3 of my locos and am quite pleased with them (Cost $40-50 Aust). https://www.pololu.com/category/94/pololu-simple-motor-controllers
Standard 2.4GHz R/C Transmitter/Receiver combo.
One is in a Bachmann Connie with Mylocosound (18V15) 14.8V 4000MAHr LiPo Graphene battery.
One going into my 55Ton Bachmann Shay (18V15) 14.8V 5.2MAHr LiPo Graphene battery with a Mylocosound install planned.
One in a "matched train" with an old MDC big hustler loco (18V7).
The matched train is 4 gravel tubs with the batteries (12x300MAh NiMH AA cells wired to give nominal 12V) in 3 and the controller and R/C gear in the other.
I can program the High and Low Vin so which give low voltage cutoff for the LiPos so I don't discharge them to low and have overvoltage protection for the ESC.
Pololu supply free software to do this and all you need is a USB to micro USB cable to connect to a computer.
Install and programming instructions are very easy to follow.
I can calibrate the throttle input to set the neutral max and min positions of the stick.
These things are used by the robotics guys and will do all that you asked for.
The part number gives the voltage and current parameters eg 18V7 = 18V 7A.
I can get these to work in a short time by following the instructions so they are easy to use.

 

[Gavin Sowry]

You're probably right about lack of power to increase the available amps try 2 more batteries in parallel. I think that's right, no doubt you'll be told if I'm wrong!

Trouble is, that would only give me 7.2V... which is not enough to get the BTE to reverse latch. That's why I went series, so that I'd get 14.4V.