Approval Granted - Planning Begins

[phils2um]

The only risk would be if two trains entered the zone from two different sides, right?

I had assumed the double slip, (or two regular turnouts should you go this way) were the only entrance to the green zone. That is why I recommended the isolation be as close to the entrance to the green zone as possible should you chose to have the entire zone controlled by the reverse module. With one entrance there is no way two trains can compete to change the polarity if the isolation is right at the switches. The trains would crash into each other anyway! DCC trains that are completely in the zone are not an issue. The polarity swap has no effect on them - the decoders takes care of the change in polarity. The conflict only happens if two trains are simultaneously bridging isolation locations of opposite polarity.

 

[phils2um]

the problem comes where two trains are trying to ‘short’ the revercing unit at the same time. It kind of runs home to mummy and says “oh dear which way shall I alter the track feeds”?

Yes!

 

[curtis]

Hi Curtis,

I like your plans. My only suggestion, especially since you've found a little more space, is to lengthen your passing sidings a bit. They appear to be the ultimate limit on your train length. It is very difficult to lengthen them later should you wish to. I've got one passing siding on my RR that is shorter than I'd like even though it looked OK when I put it in. I wish I'd made it one LGB 10600 (60cm) longer after running a while. I can't fix it now without major rework that I'm not willing to do.

I think this point ties in nicely with what Greg says further down the thread so perhaps can give a general reply. One thing I think, upon reflection of the above plan, is I've maybe tried to do too much in the space. Generally, I think I achieved it well but at the expense of the length of stations/passing sides. Generally, I aimed for x3 HSB passenger coaches + loco, however, I think as part of the redraw I'm going to aim for x4 HSB passenger coaches + loco (which I think fits to your +60cm desire)

I'm not dogmatic with my railway and probably won't be for a while. I really embrace rule 8. The general guidelines are European steam in the DACH region and almost entirely narrow gauge locos and stock. I know my wife (as an American) would like to periodically run a special American steam train and stock but let's consider that an exception. I know I'm not going to run any of the modern RhB or American stock (as beautiful as it is)

Edit added: One other suggestion - It appears your plan is likely based on sectional track. I recommend you go with flex track wherever possible even if you need to cut it to fit. You will not regret it! You'll be able to buy a rail bender for what you save on rail clamps! Plus, it'll lessen future issues with your intended track power.

You're right, a lot of what I bought was sectional primarily for my convenience of planning (and the ability to play depending on how long this takes). I did also purchase 18m of flex track so there is some nice flexibility there (pun not intended)

Starting out, minimum radius and maximum grade.

To be successful, and be happy with your work a few years later, it's always best to identify the FUTURE of the layout.

When complete (say 5 years), what are the lengths and composition of the rolling stock? (longest cars, number of cars in a train)
Get even more specific on the locomotives you WANT to have.

With the room you have, you should (in my opinion) have NO R1 curves nor switches anywhere. The first thing that glares at me is your mostly underground R1 loop (since no scale was given to the grid, if I missed it let me know).

Setting your expectations will avoid no-fixable problems in the future.

Greg

Good spot, Greg. It's not LGB R1 but Piko R3 (~6ft diameter) and was a last addition to the plan. I decided against it for the reasons you outlined above and felt it was a "easy" way out that would likely bite me in the arse at some point.

Regarding R1s - I've got ~11 of both left and right R3 turnouts so was designing with minimal R1 turnouts in mind. I will use R1 turnouts in the storage sidings in the garage due to the space. I know this may limit me in the future if I decide to massively change my fleet but I don't see that happening in the next 5 years. The only other place I considered them was in a redesign in reversing section in the terminus station on the left of the garage. Nikki agreed to extend the garage into our driveway giving us more space. Junction mockups below - layout is towards the top of the image. The rest of the terminus and the layout would be R3s.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

I would keep the diameter/radius of the 2 reversing loops as big as possible, especially in the light that one is in a tunnel.

I like the idea that you have basically the ability to run in what I call "display mode" with 2 trains. Any 2 trains can go around and around with no attention.

My layout has the same thing, and the ability to make it a single circuit, that goes through both loops. Nice when you want to put your feet up with your favorite beverage and just blow the whistle and horn once in a while.

Greg

 

[curtis]

That was very much the plan so I'm glad you called it out! We hope to use the garden a lot and the idea of being able to "set and forget" a couple of trains running while with BBQ and beer etc is part of the design (and a specific request from Nikki which I'm always happy to encourage).

On that note, we were in the garden today and played around with a variance on the above plan. Nikki likes the idea of sectioning off the garden using the flowerbeds / railway. We discussed the idea of inserting one end of the reverse loops into the Biddle of the garden to breakup the flow.

He's a quick and dirty mockup.

A few things to keep in mind:

• Tracks mocked in Blue/Purple will be in raised garden beds approx 30cm off the ground. Consider these the lower tracks. This is because our garage is raised by about that height so for the trains to run in for storage I'm keeping that as the lowest point. (works well because Nikki and I wanted the railway raised off the floor slightly anyway)
• The upper track is a double reversing loop, approx 60cm from the ground. The blue track generally runs under this in the middle flower bed.
• There is a pond to the right
• The area of the left is for our outdoor seating on a paved area

The challenge I'm having when mocking this up is with connecting to upper and lower lines. One option is to run a gentle gradient from the far left top corner to the top right corner (the waterfall/rockery). This allows a simple but out of sight (and in my opinion, less interesting) connection. It also prevents operations between the upper and lower without returning to the terminus (although, perhaps this makes the terminus a more interesting "interchange"

The other option is to try and run a second line up the right hand side of the pond on a steeper gradient (I think I can get it to around 4.5% which I fear will be too steep for my fleet of locos (x-6-x U-Class, Sprewald, x2 LGB 2015 tender looks) and general good running but could make a really interesting feature behind the pond.

Dropping these here to gather thoughts and wisdom of this group on how to approach it.

 

[PhilP]

If you have curves on, or either end of a gradient, it adds significantly to the load on your loco's.
You could have a short spur, at the bottom of the grade, and stable a loco there as a banker, to give a push from the back..

The problem, you then have to 'drive' this section, rather than sitting watching the trains go by..

PhilP

 

[dunnyrail]

Less as they say can often be so much more. I think before you get too heavily into planning you need to ask a few fundamental questions.
1 what do I wish to achieve from my garden railway?
2 do I just want to watch trains go round and round?
3 do I want to run timetables?
4 do I want lots of places for wagons to run to so that trains have lots of shunting to do?
5 what size trains do I want?
6 is my line going to be Harz based? If so remember pre wall that much freight was moved in mixed passenger trains with freight wagons attached pre Stiege Loop build.
7 what prototype gauge will I be modelling?
8 750mm or Metre Gauge?
10 Minimum Radius Of curves?
11 will my line be on the ground or raised?

These are a few of the ones that come to mind after some of your discussions, but a few more may emerge to you when you get this type of thinking into gear.

But do not overthink it either, that way nothing will get built!

 

[Paul M]

Get something down and see! Working to ans is great, but often looks different when actually built, and start slowly

 

[curtis]

@PhilP given this was only really a transition track I don't have a problem with driving it. The continuous runs in orange and blue can be left to roundy-round.

Very fair points. Nikki said something similar about getting bogged down in planning. The limitation has been given recent travelling and the move it's been harder to just be in the Garden since we moved in a couple of weeks ago. We expect in the next couple of weeks our builders will remove the 3 trees in the garden so we'll have the blank slate ready.

@dunnyrail , in response to your questions:

1 what do I wish to achieve from my garden railway?
For us, it will be about having a railway in the garden. An interesting feature to excite our guests. My hobbies are both garden railways and pond keeping so the idea of being able to do either of those with the other in the background is wonderful. When it is in a fair state, we'd love to host open days for the public to raise money for charity and then running days for anyone that wants to come and play (although I've not found any 45mm friends in Jersey yet!)

2 do I just want to watch trains go round and round?
This is what I'd consider the default mode of operation particularly for when we have guests/BBQs etc. However, I enjoyed running trains with @65 1057 when we had a running session together. It was less about operations (shunting, timetables etc) but running 2 trains on the same line and having to navigate that. With the Balcon Bahn, I did some basic operations which I quite enjoyed (used a spreadsheet to pick wagons / order) but never done it in full. It's something I'd like to explore more but not the reason for being.

3 do I want to run timetables?
No - I don't think it's my interest (although, admittedly, have never done it)

4 do I want lots of places for wagons to run to so that trains have lots of shunting to do?
This was something I was thinking about originally but didn't include in the plan. Given the space (although I feel very lucky) it feels like the trade-off was two continuous running lines or yards/destinations for shunting. Would love to explore that, though.

5 what size trains do I want?
Not short (more than 3/4 2 axels) but nothing prototypical. Trains that are ~3-4 LGB HSB carriages or 4-8 two axels are probably the realm I was thinking.

6 is my line going to be Harz based? If so remember pre wall that much freight was moved in mixed passenger trains with freight wagons attached pre Stiege Loop build.
7 what prototype gauge will I be modelling?
8 750mm or Metre Gauge?
I think I can answer these together. This is where I'm invoking Rule 8. For me, it is some vague fictional (mostly) narrow-gauge in the DACH region. However, I wouldn't rule out having the odd meter garage tank loco and a special American steam mogul (Nikki's request)

10 Minimum Radius Of curves?
LGB R3 as the prevailing wisdom. I'll probably use R1 turnouts in the storage tracks in the garage given I have so many.

11 will my line be on the ground or raised?
It will be raised by at least 30cm due to the floor of the garage being this height. However, it will be in raised planters/flower beds as opposed to running on stilts.

We're going to order some of the materials we know we'll need (concrete blocks, for example) so we can start laying things out a bit more as per @Paul M 's suggestion and seeing how it feels to run. Given the moving is done we'll have time to spend in/on the garden!

 

[Paul M]

@PhilP given this was only really a transition track I don't have a problem with driving it. The continuous runs in orange and blue can be left to roundy-round.

Very fair points. Nikki said something similar about getting bogged down in planning. The limitation has been given recent travelling and the move it's been harder to just be in the Garden since we moved in a couple of weeks ago. We expect in the next couple of weeks our builders will remove the 3 trees in the garden so we'll have the blank slate ready.

@dunnyrail , in response to your questions:

1 what do I wish to achieve from my garden railway?
For us, it will be about having a railway in the garden. An interesting feature to excite our guests. My hobbies are both garden railways and pond keeping so the idea of being able to do either of those with the other in the background is wonderful. When it is in a fair state, we'd love to host open days for the public to raise money for charity and then running days for anyone that wants to come and play (although I've not found any 45mm friends in Jersey yet!)

2 do I just want to watch trains go round and round?
This is what I'd consider the default mode of operation particularly for when we have guests/BBQs etc. However, I enjoyed running trains with @65 1057 when we had a running session together. It was less about operations (shunting, timetables etc) but running 2 trains on the same line and having to navigate that. With the Balcon Bahn, I did some basic operations which I quite enjoyed (used a spreadsheet to pick wagons / order) but never done it in full. It's something I'd like to explore more but not the reason for being.

3 do I want to run timetables?
No - I don't think it's my interest (although, admittedly, have never done it)

4 do I want lots of places for wagons to run to so that trains have lots of shunting to do?
This was something I was thinking about originally but didn't include in the plan. Given the space (although I feel very lucky) it feels like the trade-off was two continuous running lines or yards/destinations for shunting. Would love to explore that, though.

5 what size trains do I want?
Not short (more than 3/4 2 axels) but nothing prototypical. Trains that are ~3-4 LGB HSB carriages or 4-8 two axels are probably the realm I was thinking.

6 is my line going to be Harz based? If so remember pre wall that much freight was moved in mixed passenger trains with freight wagons attached pre Stiege Loop build.
7 what prototype gauge will I be modelling?
8 750mm or Metre Gauge?
I think I can answer these together. This is where I'm invoking Rule 8. For me, it is some vague fictional (mostly) narrow-gauge in the DACH region. However, I wouldn't rule out having the odd meter garage tank loco and a special American steam mogul (Nikki's request)

10 Minimum Radius Of curves?
LGB R3 as the prevailing wisdom. I'll probably use R1 turnouts in the storage tracks in the garage given I have so many.

11 will my line be on the ground or raised?
It will be raised by at least 30cm due to the floor of the garage being this height. However, it will be in raised planters/flower beds as opposed to running on stilts.

We're going to order some of the materials we know we'll need (concrete blocks, for example) so we can start laying things out a bit more as per @Paul M 's suggestion and seeing how it feels to run. Given the moving is done we'll have time to spend in/on the garden!

No1 is my preferred view, but a bit of shunting etc does add interest.
For other garden railway folks try the16mm Association Glyn Salmon on area.groups@16mm.org.uk.
OK they're not G Scale, but definitely a good group to join for garden railways, and s lot run on 45mm gauge

 

[dunnyrail]

No1 is my preferred view, but a bit of shunting etc does add interest.
For other garden railway folks try the16mm Association Glyn Salmon on area.groups@16mm.org.uk.
OK they're not G Scale, but definitely a good group to join for garden railways, and s lot run on 45mm gauge

Good advice, I was also wondering if anyone could point out how many G scale members live on his Island, if enough G Society may be a good join also.

 

[Paul M]

Good advice, I was also wondering if anyone could point out how many G scale members live on his Island, if enough G Society may be a good join also.

Obviously there won't be too many, and anyone who is a member of one is likely to know of people in the other

 

[curtis]

Good recommendation. I'm already a member of the G-Scale society but my membership has primarily been enjoying the quarterly journals. I've emailed the membership secretary asking if they could pass on my contact details to any other Jersey-based member(s)

And I hope it goes without saying - if anyone takes a few days holiday in Jersey, you're always welcome to come round for a tea/coffee/beer!

 

[Greg Elmassian]

I had a big issue with my small yard space, it took a lot of work to get the layout around the edges of the yard. Doing so allowed me to keep the normal curve to 14' diameter curves, but the situation took me 21 inches in the air. How to get down? Well there is a 5.5% downgrade. The means running is usually in only one direction, but it works.

You might be entertained and see some helpful stuff here:

Outer loop North side

Greg Elmassian web site on large scale trains and garden railroads, cigars, and computers

elmassian.com

this is the home page that details starting, and the various challenges and how I overcame them:

Layout Progress & Development

Greg Elmassian web site on large scale trains and garden railroads, cigars, and computers

elmassian.com

Greg

 

[Paul M]

No1 is my preferred view, but a bit of shunting etc does add interest.
For other garden railway folks try the16mm Association Glyn Salmon on area.groups@16mm.org.uk.
OK they're not G Scale, but definitely a good group to join for garden railways, and s lot run on 45mm gauge

Curtis, sorry I slipped up! For some strange reason, I was thinking you were on the Isle of Wight, not Jersey!! Although my thoughts of the 16mm Association still stands, I'm not sure there is a group on Jersey. Although I'm pretty sure there must be some like minded folk there

 

[JimmyB]

Curtis, sorry I slipped up! For some strange reason, I was thinking you were on the Isle of Wight, not Jersey!! Although my thoughts of the 16mm Association still stands, I'm not sure there is a group on Jersey. Although I'm pretty sure there must be some like minded folk there

The SMT editor lives on Guernsey.

 

[Paul M]

The SMT editor lives on Guernsey.

You're right, he does! I'd forgotten that

 

[Edgar]

Do you have a temporary test line/loop set up for distraction while these issues are contemplated? It looks like a grand place to run a train while you’re thinking about it.

 

[PhilP]

I am sure Curtis will pop some track down..
After all, he will have to 'test' nothing has been damaged in transit..


The SMT Editor might live on Guernsey, but Curtis is on Jersey.
Not a visit you can do on a wim...

 

[curtis]

I had a big issue with my small yard space, it took a lot of work to get the layout around the edges of the yard. Doing so allowed me to keep the normal curve to 14' diameter curves, but the situation took me 21 inches in the air. How to get down? Well there is a 5.5% downgrade. The means running is usually in only one direction, but it works.

You might be entertained and see some helpful stuff here:

Outer loop North side

Greg Elmassian web site on large scale trains and garden railroads, cigars, and computers

elmassian.com

this is the home page that details starting, and the various challenges and how I overcame them:

Layout Progress & Development

Greg Elmassian web site on large scale trains and garden railroads, cigars, and computers

elmassian.com

Greg

A lot of great material, thank you. Greg, I'd actually read that page before when browsing your site but had a different context this time given I was reading it with the purpose of a specific problem. Thank you! On thing to note - I'm seeing a few broken images on this page, just an FYI.

I'm a member of the G-Scale Society but I'll also check out the 16mm. I joined the local club and although no G do have some SM32 modellers who were very friendly when chatting.

Do you have a temporary test line/loop set up for distraction while these issues are contemplated? It looks like a grand place to run a train while you’re thinking about it.

I had some trains running for a few days (some pictures below). Nothing advance - just a large rounds-round which was run to sit and watch. Here is a pan around the garden while the track cleaning loco is doing its thing (volume down on the video!)

This week, our builders began (and made excellent process) on the new back wall. The garden behind us is around 1m below us so a retaining wall is being built. The top part will then be rendered. Some pictures of the work so far (sorry, no track or trains running!)