Anything else that will do what the DRC300 promised....?

dunnyrail said:
So if I can get this all in Perspective.

1 I buy myself a Tam Valley Sender and Receiver at around £35 each.
2 Connect the Sender to my Massoth Base Station (I wonder how?).
3 Sort out the receiver in my Massoth Chipped Locomotive in which I have placed a DPDT Switch that allows it to run from Track Power or the Battery Pack that I have installed.
4 Then I can drive it by Radio from my Massoth Handset, presumably it will be the same Chip Number that the Massoth Chip already has assigned to it.

Is it really this simple or have I again got the wrong end of the stick?
JonD
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Pretty much, it IS that simple.

1) Basically yes - although the new high-power receiver (designed for G scale) that Tam are offering is going to be more expensive, probably around the price that the DRC300 was originally promised at (£60-£70). We'll have to see what the final UK prices are like when dealers over here (including Muns) start to stock them.
2) Couldn't be simpler - 2 wires from the track power output of the central station to the DRS transmitter. At present the transmitter is just a circuit board with an antenna, so you will need to get a little box or other housing for it.
3) Yes.
4) Yes. Same loco number and all. The loco decoder will only respond to control signals for its assigned address, just as it would via track power. Control is completely seamless and you won't notice any difference.

That's all as I understand it, having seen and tried Cliff's test rig today.

Jon.
 
Jon,
So many thanks for that reply. I now understand what I need and this will probably be a solution to my crummy running Piko Diesels, the Kamel in particular that I just want to work as it fits in with my line. Both these loco's have the Horrible Ally Wheels which are not swappable so Battery is the Solution.

Many thanks again,
JonD
 
dunnyrail said:
Jon,
So many thanks for that reply. I now understand what I need and this will probably be a solution to my crummy running Piko Diesels, the Kamel in particular that I just want to work as it fits in with my line. Both these loco's have the Horrible Ally Wheels which are not swappable so Battery is the Solution.

Many thanks again,
JonD
Click to expand...

Good idea, Jon. I may end up doing the same with my own Kamel (which has had very little running, so I haven't yet experienced the wheel pickup problems, but I'm sure they would develop over time); it's a prime candidate for using as a test loco for the DRS, as there should be plenty of room inside the two hoods for a decent battery pack and any other necessary gubbins.

Now, I'm not 100% certain of this (I'd have a chat with Cliff about it before buying anything) but I can see no theoretical reason why you can't have both the DRS system AND conventional track-power DCC running simultaneously, simply by piggy-backing the DRS transmitter off the feeds from the Dimax to the rails - thus allowing you to run your DRS-equipped Kamel at the same time as your other track-power-DCC locos.

Jon.
 
Zerogee said:
Now, I'm not 100% certain of this (I'd have a chat with Cliff about it before buying anything) but I can see no theoretical reason why you can't have both the DRS system AND conventional track-power DCC running simultaneously, simply by piggy-backing the DRS transmitter off the feeds from the Dimax to the rails - thus allowing you to run your DRS-equipped Kamel at the same time as your other track-power-DCC locos.

Jon.
Click to expand...

That should be ok Jon. One of the possibilities indicated on the TV website is to take your loco & transmitter to another users railway, connect the TX to the track with crock clips and off you go with your battery powered DCC loco!
 
Thanks Mark, that definitively answers that one I think! :)

Just one other thing that crossed my mind that I've been unable to find an answer to, maybe you know.... what frequency is used for Massoth's link between the wireless Navigator and their RC receiver? Is it well away from the frequency that Tam Valley's "euro" DRS works on?

Any update yet on when you might have the Hi-power DRS units in stock - and any firm idea of a UK retail price yet?
You can definitely put me down for a Transmitter and probably just one Receiver at the start to play around with, then most likely at least a couple more later on.....

Jon.
 
Cliff, thanks for all the info so far, just one additional question I might have missed. What batteries are people using? Custom built packs to get 12v or commercial packs? I'd like to try this for running my stuff on friends garden lines that don't have the power or necessarily clean enough track for dcc reliability.
 
Hi Dave,

Glad this is a useful thread for you.

davidarf said:
I had not recognised the potential of the NCE Powercab to act as both the hand held controller and a command station. With the option of running this from a battery, then this (with Tam Valley products) becomes the first (and presently only) portable digital control solution on my list. I have therefore started to take a much closer look at the Powercab to see what benefits and limitations that it brings. So far, I have noted two limitations. The cost at about £200 for the Powercab and transmitter, and £250 to £300 per locomotive for receiver and sound decoder makes it essential to be sure that this is the best solution. Secondly, the user interface is rather basic when compared to other solutions such as the Ring Railpro. I understand that there is a possibility of a large scale version of the Railpro sometime in 2015. The down side of this for many is that it does not use DCC components. Another offering that is somewhere just over the horizon is the Protocab which will use it's own bespoke locomotive receiver/decoder.
Click to expand...

I got my Powercab for £136.00, the Tam Valley receiver and transmitter were about £50.00 each (I got then from the US, but you can now get them from Digitrains and muns is going to get them in). As Jon has already said it is much more economic when locos already have DCC and/or sound installed. Having said that your £200.00 to £250.00 for a sound decoder sounds (pun intended) a bit steep to me. Most of mine have a Lenz decoder with a SUSI sound module which combined comes to about £115.00.

I looked up some info on the Rail Ring Pro. It seems there is a lot that can be done with the handheld, but I would be worried that it would be hard to read the touch screen outdoors due to sunlight. Personally I prefer physical buttons.

davidarf said:
Any further thoughts/observations that anyone has on the Powercab option would be very welcome.
Click to expand...

It does everything I need, and is more intuitive than my Lenz Cab.

I want to be able to select a loco control its direction and speed and all 28 functions, I can. I want to be able to run multiple locos at the same time, again I can. I may need the emergency stop, it has one. I'm not really interested in using it for decoder programming (which I have other ways of doing) or double heading but others may be. I believe Massoth may still be restricted to only 16 functions, and their double heading has issues with loco direction.
 
dunnyrail said:
So if I can get this all in Perspective.

1 I buy myself a Tam Valley Sender and Receiver at around £35 each.
2 Connect the Sender to my Massoth Base Station (I wonder how?).
3 Sort out the receiver in my Massoth Chipped Locomotive in which I have placed a DPDT Switch that allows it to run from Track Power or the Battery Pack that I have installed.
4 Then I can drive it by Radio from my Massoth Handset, presumably it will be the same Chip Number that the Massoth Chip already has assigned to it.

Is it really this simple or have I again got the wrong end of the stick?
JonD
Click to expand...

Jon has already answered all your question and I agree with him.

I think you are a little optimistic thinking you can get the Tam Valley transmitter and receiver (original I presume) for £35.00 each. Digitrains are now selling them at £50.00 each. The Hi power version has not yet reached these shores but is $120.00 in the states. I presume you already have batteries chargers etc.
 
Zerogee said:
The only thing that the DRC300 was planned to do differently was to remove the Dimax central station from the chain, by sending direct from the Navigator to the DRC300 receiver in the loco -
Click to expand...

I have my doubts about that, although I know this was the original information Massoth put out. I believe there was some later discussion from Massoth that it would be possible to still talk to a Dimax central station while controlling directly a DRC300 from the Navigator.

If it isn't possible to talk to the central station then how is it possible to control existing accessories such as signals and points? Possibly Massoth originally intend that all accessories also be equipped with a DRC300. But in that case will the DRC300 be protected for outdoor fixed installation, how would it be powered and it then would not be easy to switch between track powered DCC and wireless battery powered DCC.

Personally from the information I have I think that the Tam Valley solution is superior because (as Jon said) it will work with any DCC system, including those of us who don't currently have a Massoth central station or a Massoth Navigator.
 
PaulRhB said:
Cliff, thanks for all the info so far, just one additional question I might have missed. What batteries are people using? Custom built packs to get 12v or commercial packs? I'd like to try this for running my stuff on friends garden lines that don't have the power or necessarily clean enough track for dcc reliability.
Click to expand...

Hi Paul,

I'm not really much of a battery expert. In my test rig I used a three cell 11.1v li-po that I had anyway. I used some electronics to step the voltage up to 12v for the original Tam Valley receiver, and to 19V for the DCC booster. This gave about 18V DCC into the decoder.

I used a 2.2 Ah battery and it gives about three hours of running with two motor LGB loco. I used one of those little battery monitors that the model aircraft people use to buzz when the battery voltage got too low and I then knew to stop and replace the battery.

For the high power receiver possibly a 5 cell 18.5V li-po would be the thing to use and no extra voltage changing electronics.

Not yet having seen the high power receiver it may be that it could still do with some voltage regulation electronics so that the voltage stays at say 19v into the receiver whatever the real battery voltage so that the loco keeps at the same speed regardless of how much the battery has run down. I probably need to experiment to find out.

My battery is in a trailing box car so it is easy to remove for recharging. Probably it wouldn't be a good idea to use a li-po if it was to be installed in an engine where it couldn't be easily removed for recharging due to recharging issues with these batteries. Possibly something like five lithium 14500 AA sized batteries.

Having said that I thought the chemistry for li-pos and li-ons was pretty similar anyway, if not the same. So I'm not sure of the wisdom that li-ons are safer. Batteries protected from over charging/under discharge may be a good idea.

Anyway as I said I'm no battery expert. The existing battery boys would probably know more than me.

For powering the powercab I used two 3.7V 14500 in series stepped up to 12V if that is what you are asking me. These were quoted as 900mAh and lasted about 3 hours.
 
Cliff George said:
Jon has already answered all your question and I agree with him.

I think you are a little optimistic thinking you can get the Tam Valley transmitter and receiver (original I presume) for £35.00 each. Digitrains are now selling them at £50.00 each. The Hi power version has not yet reached these shores but is $120.00 in the states. I presume you already have batteries chargers etc.
Click to expand...

As for the price, I was quoting what I thought I read earlier in the thread. Good to get a handle on this though. As for Batteries etc, yes I know that these need to be factored in as well. But in the end it is all about having a usable Locomotive. I already have 3 Battery Locs all using Aristo Kit. But they have differing Sound Systems, 1 American, one a Class 37 in a Wizzy Cranks and the other a horrible Simulated Sound that I just do not like at all. So my quest for a while has been to find something that will let me keep an existing Massoth Decoder for the Correct Sound particularly with my Kamel. It appears that this system has been found. This sounds extremely attractive as I can use my Massoth RC Controllers as well.
JonD
 
"I got my Powercab for £136.00, the Tam Valley receiver and transmitter were about £50.00 each "

Cliff, I based my costings on the new higher power receivers which are priced at $120 and was expecting them to be over £100 here. Cheaper decoders than the ones I was looking at are available, but I was struggling to find many options that would come with the sound files that I wanted. At last search I only found ESU and Zimo at about £155 and £175 respectively.

As the suggested route for me was to use the NCE Powercab because this acts as both hand held and central unit (and can be battery powered), I saw this as a possible route to a more comprehensive control system and authentic sound files. However, I had some concerns about potential interference should two operators at a garden meeting arrive with the same kit. I have just had a reply from Tam Valley to my question on this point and they confirm that two transmitter units operating in close proximity will interfere and one may be swamped by signal from the other. I am told that the design for the system was based on a single central controller and single transmitter, i.e. as in conventional track wired DCC setup. Tam Valley have also confirmed that they have no plans to offer any alternative radio systems such as 2.4GHz which provides for protection against interference.

I can see that the Tam Valley route is a very attractive option for those with existing DCC systems operating in a single location. The additional cost, even with the new receivers, is not too significant, given the potential benefits. However, I think that it could turn out to be an expensive dead end where portability is a high priority and multiple control systems may be present.

I thank those that have responded to my postings here. Your thoughts and information have been of value to me. I think that my situation necessitates waiting until some supplier in the DCC or other digital control world wakes up the the need for large scale control where the commands are sent directly from hand held controllers to the locomotive receivers by secure radio channels, leaving power to be supplied separately from track, overhead, or on-board batteries.

As a final thought, I agree with you, Cliff, that push buttons are far better than touch screen.

Best wishes to all

David
 
sharpcreative said:
This has been a very interesting thread. I just skimmed through the whole lot.

My understanding is that we are talking about a solution that allows DCC commands to be sent to a loco directly from a device like the Massoth Navigator wirelessly, bypassing the 1200Z. The idea to be able to run the engines on non-powered track. [Largely to avoid the need to keep the track clean.]

Now, I have a large DCC layout [well over 1000 feet when I stopped counting] powered by Massoth 1200Z and a couple of 1200B boosters. I also have about 21 LGB locos with DCC chips and sound cards. At the moment, they all use track power from the 1200Z and boosters.

However, and this is a point I haven't seen covered in the thread so far, I also have about 45 4-port switch controllers connected to the track, which control a whole heap of signals, lights and points.

Clearly, while it might be helpful to be able to use the described devices to run the locos, without them having to get signals from the track, I would still want to run the track power, to operate the accessories - both to provide them with power and to control the switch decoders.

This raises 2 questions:

1) Can the converted DCC-chipped locos, with the DPDT switch thrown to battery power, still run on the powered track, even though they are not getting any power from the track. [ie does anything other than the DPDT switch need to be added to the loco to protect it from the track voltage]

2) As the main reason for this change of operation seems to be removing the need for track cleaning, is dirty track a problem for getting power to the accessories. I suspect not, but if it is a problem, then this solution is not much of an option for those with a large number of track-connected accessories - or have I missed something?
Click to expand...

1) Provided you have the necessary switch to COMPLETELY isolate all the loco pickups from the track power, then I can't see any problem at all in still having power present on the track - in fact this has been specifically answered a few posts back, so the answer to this one is definitely YES, it's fine.

2) Unless you get conductivity problems at track joints, I can't see any reason why surface dirt on the track would be a problem for accessories powered from the track.

Also, the idea of removing the central station from the system was Massoth's original plan behind the DRC300, but the other system(s) that have been discussed on this thread (primarily Tam Valley's DRS) DO still use the central station to actually create the DCC signal - so as it has to be there anyway, might as well continue to use it to supply accessory power and control!

All you would need to go to the DRS system is one transmitter and as many receivers (and onboard batteries of course) as you need to convert your locos - or you could go Cliff's route of a trail car with batteries and receiver on board.

Jon.
 
Still on the same overall topic, but drifting slightly off onto the subject of batteries for the sort of setup we've been discussing.....

For suitable locos where there is plenty of room in the bodyshell (mainly diesels and electrics, I'm thinking or possibly steamers with a very big tender), does anyone still use good old-fashioned sealed lead-acid batteries?
I'm thinking that they are cheap and high-capacity, they don't have any of the nasty charging issues of modern hi-tech batteries, and a couple of compact 12volt ones in series would provide a good solid 24 volts into one of the Tam Valley high-power receivers. The weight of the things would also give a good bit of extra traction ballast!

Jon.
 
Zerogee said:
Still on the same overall topic, but drifting slightly off onto the subject of batteries for the sort of setup we've been discussing.....

For suitable locos where there is plenty of room in the bodyshell (mainly diesels and electrics, I'm thinking or possibly steamers with a very big tender), does anyone still use good old-fashioned sealed lead-acid batteries?
I'm thinking that they are cheap and high-capacity, they don't have any of the nasty charging issues of modern hi-tech batteries, and a couple of compact 12volt ones in series would provide a good solid 24 volts into one of the Tam Valley high-power receivers. The weight of the things would also give a good bit of extra traction ballast!

Jon.
Click to expand...
Well they certainly work for most UPS devices, hence are available (if a little pricy) from Maplins..
 
I use the very small 6v 0.5 amp/hour gel acids as back-up for the Soundtraxx Sierra sound modules.

As long as gel acid batteries are 'topped up' every now and again they are fine. Let them go flat and that is a dead battery which does not seem to respond to any method of resuscitation.
For me the problem with the bigger, higher amperage jobbies, would be the weight, as they would have to go in the tender or following car and then that load would then have to be dragged up my inclines or push down on locos on the declines.

If you have a flat layout then they are probably another good battery solution
 
PhilP said:
Well they certainly work for most UPS devices, hence are available (if a little pricy) from Maplins..
Click to expand...

I was mainly looking at the very extensive range available from Rapid, who are just around the corner from me, thus I can buy them easily over the counter..... many different sizes and AH ratings, this is just one part of the large range they stock:
http://www.rapidonline.com/electrical-power/haze-sla-batteries-73355

I was thinking that in something like a 2095 Whizzy-cranks, a V51, or a Harzkamel, where there would be a fair amount of room anyway, that the heavy lead-acids could either supplement or actually replace the loco ballast weights....?

Jon.
 
Zerogee said:
I was mainly looking at the very extensive range available from Rapid, who are just around the corner from me, thus I can buy them easily over the counter..... many different sizes and AH ratings, this is just one part of the large range they stock:
http://www.rapidonline.com/electrical-power/haze-sla-batteries-73355

I was thinking that in something like a 2095 Whizzy-cranks, a V51, or a Harzkamel, where there would be a fair amount of room anyway, that the heavy lead-acids could either supplement or actually replace the loco ballast weights....?

Jon.
Click to expand...

As I mentioned to you on Sunday, I like the idea of fitting out a LGB Track Cleaning Locomotive. This has obvious advantages.
 
Zerogee said:
I was mainly looking at the very extensive range available from Rapid, who are just around the corner from me, thus I can buy them easily over the counter..... many different sizes and AH ratings, this is just one part of the large range they stock:
http://www.rapidonline.com/electrical-power/haze-sla-batteries-73355

I was thinking that in something like a 2095 Whizzy-cranks, a V51, or a Harzkamel, where there would be a fair amount of room anyway, that the heavy lead-acids could either supplement or actually replace the loco ballast weights....?

Jon.
Click to expand...

Hi Jon
Yes that range is good. They don't do the little jobbie that I use as it is only available in the US but one of the 12v 2.2AH or even the 2.9AH, if they fit, would keep the twin bogie LGB locos going for a good time at the moderate speed (but nicely prototypical) that a12v pack would deliver.
 
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