Alternative to LGB 17100s? Anyone?

[James Day]

Am I missing it? - Do PIKO make anything similar in purpose to the LGB 17100 or 1700 track mounted reed?

I am just looking for a better alternative to the rather awful LGB 17100 which strikes me as very poorly designed and far too fragile in use.

I note that the whilst the PIKO switch drives can be operated on half wave (like the LGB EPL system), their switch control boxes actually supply them with a burst of full wave DC, which is reversed by pressing different ends of the rocker switch on the control box.

I am wondering if this is the reason that they don't seem to supply track mounted reeds, as I guess it would be really difficult to make something deliver a reliable momentary two pole output as a magnet passed over it?

The beauty of the LGB system is that only one wire is needed to carry the + or - half wave. The other wire can be permanently connected to an AC supply.

So If PIKO don't supply anything, does anyone else do anything suitable?

I am currently reduced to looking for decent quality secondhand LGB 1700s and trying to patch up the 17100s as they fail. (The reeds can be replaced, but the failed spring bases are a different matter!).

My requirements are for something durable and weatherproof that fits in with the LGB track and EPL principles. Am I asking too much?

My layout is conventional control with automated loops, timers, block signalling and other automated features, so I need a lot of reeds! (39 in use on the last count!).

James

 

[nicebutdim]

I quickly passed on all of my LGB 17100s when I found how easy it is to make better looking and more reliable ones yourself. I used reeds similar to these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SPNO-Encapsulated-Reed-Switch-PPS150-10VA-SW926-/160860211035?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item257404075b and if you wish to mimic the LGB 17100 way of operating add 2 1N4001/1N4002 diodes. If you trace the pcb tracks on the 17100 you'll see how simple the design is, the diodes are connected to one leg of the reed, with one diode facing towards the reed and the other facing away. I mounted the reeds themselves on sleepers, two small holes drilled through the sleepers and hot glue used to attach and seal the reed to the sleeper. Where the solder joints are underneath just fill the void in the sleeper with hot glue and everything is sealed and weatherproof. It is much easier if you use a spare sleeper with the chairs cut off so you can place and move it where you like.

 

[Neil Robinson]

I quickly passed on all of my LGB 17100s when I found how easy it is to make better looking and more reliable ones yourself. I used reeds similar to these .................

I have also used these reeds when automating mates' railways.

An alternative source that may offer savings if you purchase a fair few at a time is

http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Pcb-Reed-Switch-N-o-60-0511

Not so good for small orders as they have a standard charge of £3.99 +vat P&P for orders under £30.00 ex. vat.

 

[dutchelm]

An alternative source that may offer savings if you purchase a fair few at a time is

http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Pcb-Reed-Switch-N-o-60-0511

Just one word of warning. Don't stick them to the track with evostick or similar. No points for guessing what happens.

 

[korm kormsen]

i as well made my own, by just opening an (oldmodel) LGB reed an buy the parts i saw in there.

on the pic at the left side.
the diodes i soldered to the wires.

 

[James Day]

Guys,

Thanks you all for you interesting and thought provoking replies.

My initial enquiry was to look for a commercially available alternative to the less than satisfactory LGB 17100 units.

However, you have all got me thinking now…. Yes I have used reeds before mainly with 00/H0 Scale trains, my particular favourite use for them was to control the passage of slot cars over railroad crossings/level Crossings (Aurora Model Motoring, Minic Motorways, Tyco US1 Trucking and Life-Like).

For 00/HO of course, the reeds are mounted lengthways in the track, not at 90 degrees to it, as they are with both types of LGB reed, but lengthways works well, so why not try it for G Scale?

The next thought concerned the use of sleepers as a shell, what a great idea! However, to me mounting the reed beneath the rails would not give me that much confidence that they would always be activated by passing locos. Maybe you have more luck than me, but I like my reeds right up near the rail head. However, a sleeper would still be a fine holder for a reed, laid lengthways in between the rails, it would be fairly unobtrusive.

The next thought I had concerns the advice on not gluing everything up solid - good advice indeed. In fact this got me thinking further, why seal it up at all, as long as the reed is not vulnerable and exposed. Being tucked away under the sleeper would surely do? After all, the gubbins that are used with it, (diodes, capacitors terminals etc) don't have to be in there as well do they?

So this set me thinking of a design for a home made sleeper mounted reed unit, but only have the reed inside, with trailing leads leading to circuit board in a weatherproof container a suitable distance away. The terminals diodes and capacitors will all be on the remote board.

I have already looked out some parts to trial assemble a couple. Next step field trials!

Thank you,
James

 

[nicebutdim]

With the reed sitting on top of the sleeper I have never had a non-trigger. Originally my layout had a reversing loop at each end and relied upon reliable triggering for automatic operation. I do use the LGB magnets on all my locos bar one though, and that one uses a bar rare earth magnet which also operates faultlessly.
If you do have the reed exposed to the elements it really is a good idea to seal the solder joints. I found after a couple of months of rain the joint corroded and stopped working. A cheap hot glue gun works really well at sealing the reeds down and is easy to pull apart too, although there are other items and ways of doing this.
Tim

 

[peterexmouth]

You may have trouble in the long term with these reed switches welding themselves closed as they are only rated at 0.5 amp switching current. 1 or 2 amp reeds would be more reliable.

Peter

 

[Madman]

When I operated track power, I had reverse loop at each end that relied on 17100 reed switches. Probably the same sort of track plan that Tim mentioned. They always worked flawlessly, with the exception of a bad batch that LGB acknowledged were faulty, and replaced them.

As for Piko switch drives, I found that the EPL system was not powerful enough.

 

[korm kormsen]

well, i found some more pics. (showing how easy the homemaking is.)

tests showed me, that there is no point in having the reeds too far away from the magnets.

the glue, one sees, is simple white glue. it holds things in position, but releases itself from plastic wit a little tap.

and if you haven't got enough magnets, just visit the kitchen.
the magnets shown below started their lives as doormagnets for kitchenfurniture.

 

[PhilP]

I like your use of mapping pins for axle-boxes as well! Neat!!

 

[Madman]

I like your use of mapping pins for axle-boxes as well! Neat!!

Good catch. I didn't see that.

 

[korm kormsen]

that was from the time, when i could get practically nothing here. (the aixles were turned by the village blacksmith)

 

[James Day]

Guys,

Thanks again. The ideas keep coming. heavier duty reeds are one example.

I certainly agree with the idea of covering the reed, to keep the weather off, but the LGB 17100s are not sealed, just covered.

As others have said, the LGB reeds are really quite reliable and trip every time, right up until the reed fuses together. Hence my interest in reeds that can take more current. The other issues I have with the 17100 units is the lack of durability of the bases, which seem to break too readily after very little use. Plus he circuit boards also seem to be permanently wet as the cover keeps the weather out only, but not to actually keep them dry!

Interesting to see the magnets being put on wagons. I used this method on 00 and H0 gauge trains, where there was more room there. On LGB all my locos carry a Massoth or LGB flat magnet, placed as centrally as possible. On some locos like the Bachmann Thomas series, the magnet usually needs a plinth to sit on to keep it nearer to the rails.

Once again, I very much appreciate everyones input.

James

 

[dutchelm]

It's most important to get the voltage right. Points & signals take about 0.5amps. To high a voltage = too much current & a 0.5A reed sticks. Too low & the signal will not operate.
I use an LGB train set transformer which seems just right. I think it is about 17v.
The other thing to remember is not to use one reed to operate more than one item.

 

[Madman]

Guys,

Thanks again. The ideas keep coming. heavier duty reeds are one example.

I certainly agree with the idea of covering the reed, to keep the weather off, but the LGB 17100s are not sealed, just covered.

As others have said, the LGB reeds are really quite reliable and trip every time, right up until the reed fuses together. Hence my interest in reeds that can take more current. The other issues I have with the 17100 units is the lack of durability of the bases, which seem to break too readily after very little use. Plus he circuit boards also seem to be permanently wet as the cover keeps the weather out only, but not to actually keep them dry!

Interesting to see the magnets being put on wagons. I used this method on 00 and H0 gauge trains, where there was more room there. On LGB all my locos carry a Massoth or LGB flat magnet, placed as centrally as possible. On some locos like the Bachmann Thomas series, the magnet usually needs a plinth to sit on to keep it nearer to the rails.

Once again, I very much appreciate everyones input.

James

That, I have also found. The two side tabs get weak and loose their "Springability". The older version that fit under the track is a bit more durable, but even the hinged locking tab on those needs care when handling. Plus the older version is more difficult to insert into already laid and ballasted track.

 

[korm kormsen]

It's most important to get the voltage right. Points & signals take about 0.5amps. To high a voltage = too much current & a 0.5A reed sticks. Too low & the signal will not operate.
I use an LGB train set transformer which seems just right. I think it is about 17v.
The other thing to remember is not to use one reed to operate more than one item.

my experience is, that one or two items work fine.
with three items hooked to one reed, i had to replace the reeds frequently.
as the layout, i'm building now is a complicated plan with 8 trains,
i am thinking about two options:
1) placing each needed reed twice. (if one burns out, the other one does the work)
2) using no reeds, but short aislated pieces of rail, with the AC cirquit coming into the normal rail, and going out to the switches through the short railpiece. (advantage: no burnt reeds. disadvantage: each and every metalic wheel sets it off.)

 

[nicebutdim]

Each of my reeds operates a relay to switch whatever needs to be switched, with the relay's contacts matched to the application. The only exception to this is if an electronic circuit is being triggered that doesn't draw much current.

 

[Neil Robinson]

i am thinking about two options:
1) placing each needed reed twice. (if one burns out, the other one does the work)
2) using no reeds, but short aislated pieces of rail,

Possible problem with option 1; with N/O reeds in parallel, once one set of reed contacts weld shut the spare would be ineffective.

 

[James Day]

"i am thinking about two options:
1) placing each needed reed twice. (if one burns out, the other one does the work)
2) using no reeds, but short aislated pieces of rail, with the AC cirquit coming into the normal rail, and going out to the switches through the short railpiece. (advantage: no burnt reeds. disadvantage: each and every metalic wheel sets it off.)"


Two interesting ideas. Having a second reed is fine as an insurance, say on a curve or somewhere where the first reed can be missed and not strike properly, but as has been said, if one reed sticks shut, then it will need to be isolated or replaced for operation to continue.

AC on the rails with an insulated 'activation' section, works. I have tried this in the small scales with a three rail system, where it worked 100% without issue, as there was ample redundancy.

Never tried that in two rail, but I did once use treadles to automatically reverse reverse a 00 train that ran into a shared railway and slot car siding. (Reeds could not be used there). There was a single AC feed into one rail and the train running over the treadle completed the circuit to the reversing module.

Despite the treadles being what the manufacturers themselves supplied, this was an utter pain and was forever arcing and sootting up and needed a lot of love and attention to keep it running!

Good luck,