Advice on MTS systems please.

[lgbmad]

Hi all
I am yet to start the build of my first garden railway and I am the stage of deciding to go the MTS or analogue route. I have managed to acquire the LGB digital starter set with two chipped loco's and the controllers (albeit no wiring in the set). I know the main thing against MTS is going to be the cost of installing decoders in my other loco's, and indeed the extra decoders needed in my power/sound tenders I have. I suppose what I am asking is those of you that went down this route.....are you happy you did so, or would you of rather stayed with analogue?
In the first instance I thought I could control points etc via a control panel with standard normal switches etc and then maybe later on update to digital (as and when costs allow.........or I can sneak some gear in past the boss!!!)
Also (might as well get the questions in while the space up top is in thinking mode!!), are MTS systems reliable or will I be forever changing decoders because of faults etc?
I hope to eventually have approx 300-400 feet of track in operation ( and blue pigs will also fly over Wales at the same time!!), so will I have to place several power feeds into the track further up the line to stop power drop.
I thank you in advance for any advice you can give, and although I have no railway yet I can at least bore you with site pictures later on so you can all tell me I am mad, as it is a bit steep .......but I do have two Rack loco's at the ready.
Kind regards to all
Kev

 

[whatlep]

Kev

I went DCC with LGB's original 55000 MTS central station and wired handsets in 1999. Over the years that's been upgraded to the current MTS system and all wireless handsets. I couldn't have grown my G scale line without DCC and my DCC system (a mix of LGB and Massoth kit) has proved absolutely reliable over the past 12 years.

There are other DCC systems around of course, the best known being that from Massoth and - more recently - there's one from Piko too. If you're not already aware, Massoth are the suppliers for all three systems, including LGB. Many people on GSC swear by Massoth's kit, as I do for loco chips and other electronic gear such as point and reversing loop controllers. On the other hand, I've never found Massoth's handsets as easy to use as LGB's, so I've stuck with LGB for handsets and my central station/booster. Massoth's central station is quite a beast, but it certainly doesn't come cheap, whereas second hand LGB MTS kit does come on the market reasonably often.

Before plunging into any DCC system, see it in operation and especially try out the handsets. What suits me may not suit you!

Finally, have you considered battery-power? If your interests tend towards smaller locos (or simply short wheelbase ones), then battery power could be an interesting alternative, providing your loco stud is to be kept small and you aren't envisaging a lot of pointwork which needs remote control. Battery power won't give you the same flexibility for controlling points and such like as DCC and you will have to have some degree of confidence to convert locos, but you should give it some thought.

 

[lgbmad]

HI there
thank you for such a fast response. Very interesting and helpful especially about reliability and Massoth equipment. May I ask, how does a central station booster work?
I cannot wait to get stuck in and get digging......not told my good lady about that bit yet as there will be tons to move (eeeeeeeeeeeeeek!!!)
At least if I get a small amount of track down it will give me the push to get more laid.
All the best
Kev

 

[steve parberry]

I to went digital from the outset.

Just think of all the wireing you will save two wires is so simple.

Buy the time you have got switches and boxes etc to build a panel you are well on the way to a switch decoder

As for the booster i had one but there is a slight delay as the train passes the section you dont notice it on the level but i found it hard to deal with as my section breaks ended up on a gradient.

As Peter says its best try to get out and test options first.

But remember its your railway so its your choice

 

[Gizzy]

I changed to MTS 2 from analogue (Train Engineer) at the beginning of 2011. Selling the TE funded the larger part of the cost of the MTS equipment.

The main reason for doing so, was to have sound enabled on my locos, on both my garden and indoor layouts. Altough it is possible to have sound on DC, it will go off when you change direction on the controller, and I found this annoying for shunting/reversing.

Some of my locos already had sound decoders fitted, or were DCC ready. So I was able to upgrade most of my fleet over a period of a year. I now have 5 digital/sound locos and 2 non sound analogue locos. One of these locos will eventually be upgraded, but for now it runs on address 0 (analogue mode), which will leave only a Bachmann tram running as DC. (I also have 2 battery locos.)

My layout had 3 reverse chords operated with LGB 10151 track sets. These won't work with MTS, so these were sold on. I rationalised the reversing chords to only 2, as I hardly used the 3rd one and purchased a LGB MTS reversing module to operate the other 2 which run parallel to each other. It means restricting using the loops for one train at any given time, but I can live with this limitation. Again selling on the LGB 10151 sets paid for the cost of the LGB MTS module.

For the point operation, although being Analogue to begin with, I soon brought a points decoder to operate the 4 crossovers at the far end of my line. Also, I eventually purchased a 2nd hand LGB Receiver module, as I already had the transmitter when I had brought with the original MTS 2 equipment.

I brought most of my MTS kit from various members of the forum, apart from one item, and I also sold the DC equipment here too, so quite a few members have gained as a result of me crossing over to the 'Dark Side'!

And for the future? Well any further loco purchases will be digital sound equiped of course. And I will soon be buying the PC Interface to run my layouts....

 

[PaulRhB]

I went to dcc for the display layout we took to shows to simplify wiring and then really committed to it because of sound locos. I've had one mts unit blow up, it was a month old, and one decoder, first test!, in 12 odd years. Both faults were obviously there from new and replaced under warranty. If you've bought a used set then it's going to be already tested so unless it's been abused or had poor layout wiring causing shorts I'd expect it to just keep going.
One thing the mts doesn't like is being stored in an un-heated shed as either the temperature differences, (probably causing solder joints to flex), or condensation can cause failures.
Basic decoders aren't that expensive and can be used in other things later if you chip favourite locks first.

 

[dunnyrail]

I would suggest that you consider Air Control for the points, simple to set up not cheep but comparable to the digital option. You can also wire things up so that you have a proper Signal Box for each Station, so much better if you are following the Train round your line. I have been usy Air control for my points over the last 8 years or so with no problems whatsoever.

Brandbrigt appear to still be offering this:-

http://www.brandbright.co.uk/ Lo...erre have been threads in this forum. JinD

 

[lgbmad]

Morning guys (and maybe ladies if you are out there)
thank you so much for the updates and info. I have been reading a lot of books on setting up a railway, but the info from this forum is the 'Muts you know what'.
Can I ask about boosters, would I be correct in saying that these are added power units into separated sections of the railway so each section has sufficient power? If this is so I assume that will mean isolating these sections from each other (I feel such a novice........buy yet again......I AM!!). Do you feel I will need boosters on a railway (eventually of 300-400 feet )
While on the subject does anyone know of any books I can purchase re MTS wiring info etc.
Thank you again guys, and if anyone has an open day or such (or area meetings) any where in the Powys /Shropshire area please let me know.
Must be off 4 legged friends to feed.
Regards
Kev

 

[Gizzy]

I have 200ft of track so I don't need a booster. I'm not aware of anyone who does, although most of the chaps I know with larger layouts have the Massoth 1200Z system pushing out 12 Amps. MTS has 5 Amps and should be sufficient for a medium sized layout with smaller to medium sized locos.

As for MTS wiring, simply connect your 2 wires to the track, and you're done!
Just re-reading your first post I see you don't seem to have the wiring, so take a look here for a manual;

http://www.champex-linden.de/lgb_pr...7BB7DE590D4BD05256B640067519F/$FILE/55005.PDF

You don't need any isolating sections, although you can still fit them if required? As I converted from DC to MTS, I kept my old DC isolating sections and just connected the MTS in place of the Train Engineer output, but I could have just as easily scrapped the control panel. I may even do this in the future!

Best thing to get ideas on MTS is to visit other railways, which you obviously seem to want to do, and see for yourself what system suits you. If you do find someone nearby in Powys/Salop then you've got the added bonus of someone close by if you need help....

 

[whatlep]

Can I ask about boosters, would I be correct in saying that these are added power units into separated sections of the railway so each section has sufficient power? If this is so I assume that will mean isolating these sections from each other (I feel such a novice........buy yet again......I AM!!). Do you feel I will need boosters on a railway (eventually of 300-400 feet )
While on the subject does anyone know of any books I can purchase re MTS wiring info etc.
Thank you again guys, and if anyone has an open day or such (or area meetings) any where in the Powys /Shropshire area please let me know.

Kev
On boosters, you have exactly the right idea, but whether you need one is down to how much current your layout's resources will draw. By resources I mean not only locos, but also things like DCC modules (points/ reversing loops) and lighting, both on trains themselves and in any buildings. To give you an idea, I regularly run double-hauled trains with 2-motor locos up a 1 in 20 gradient. Rather extreme, but fun! One of those trains can easily draw 4 amps on the gradient, which means anything else moving at the same time would be stretching my LGB MTS central station (max current supply about 5.5 amps). So I have a 50090 booster as well. Half my line is in one (electrically isolated) section, the rest in the second. Contrary to one earlier positing, I see no hesitation as trains pass from one section to the other. Until I moved to my current location and had to build in the gradient, a single MTS 5 amp central station was perfectly adequate for running up to 3 2-motored trains at once. Starting small and adding boosters (you can use any manufacturers with an LGB central station) is cheaper and less financially painful than going for a single high amperage central station from the beginning.

On wiring, go for standard UK domestic lighting cable (twin core 5 amps), but have the shortest possible run from central station to track. Your track has much less electrical resistance than wire (think about the relative cross-sections), provided your joints are kept tight. I recommend that you get some cable with a black, rubberised outer if possible. Other colours will become VERY visible in the garden, especially white. Ask me how I learned this...... :wits:

On visits, there are many people around who are in the Shropshire area and several have Open Days during the year. I'm a little further afield near Malvern, but if you fancy visiting, feel free to send me a note through GSC's PM (personal message) system. I strongly recommend that you see several layouts, both DCC and non-DCC before deciding whether to choose DCC and what brand to buy.

P.S. - were I starting from scratch again, I would provide a 12 volt lighting circuit for buildings and station lights completely separate from the DCC feed. Why? Keeps the load on the DCC system lower and makes it really easy to use 12 volts LEDs for lights!

 

[ntpntpntp]

<edit> Ah, both writing & posting at the same time again! </edit>
The number of boosters and/or their amp capacity is not related to the length of track. It's related to the number of locos (and lighted coaches etc.) you want to have running at the same time. If you want loads of stuff running that's going to draw lots of amps then you have to start thinking about splitting the track into power districts so that each has it's own booster capable of supplying the current required for all the stuff running on that section of track.

Just go with the MTS 5 amp to start with and see how you get on. Later you can upgrade to Massoth 12 amp if necessary.

The LGB/Massoth stuff is good but don't forget there are other brands of DCC system capable of running garden lines, each with its own pros and cons. For example I run a 10 amp NCE system.

 

[bigjack]

I went down the digital route right from the start. Started with the LGB MTS2, then onto the MTS3 and now have the Massoth system. I have somewhere in the region of 400ft + of track and have no need for a power booster, also no booster was needed when I had the MTS systems. The power feed to my track joins at just one point, never found the need for multiple feeds. Trains run fine even at the most extreme part of the track. So in conclusion I think that you don't need a power booster.

I decided to go for the Massoth unit when my MTS3 failed. I already had the Massoth Navigator (this is compatible with the MTS3, but not the MTS2) which I found (compared to the LGB Universal handset) extremely easy to use, as the on-screen display shows you what loco you are (you can control 2 or more loco's at once) controlling at that any time by putting the loco address in to the handset. This will show you which loco, and direction the loco is traveling along with the speed. Without going into to much detail at the moment, the handset gives you all of the details of what's going on at any one time.

As for chipping the loco, I prefer the ESU Loksound decoders, or though I do have some Massoth decoders as well. They are about the same price as the Massoth decoders, it just a personal thing, you pays your money, you takes your choice.

I went down the digital route as I liked the idea of being able to run more than one loco at a time. When dad was with us he and I would sit in the garden each running 2 trains on the same track, it was great fun, I still miss the old boy. So, in a word do I have any regrets, no, none at all, not even the cost of chipping loco's. Please remember, you don't have to go down the sound decoder route (these are about £170) I have several loco's that just have loco decoders in them (These are about £55) They do the job just as well

Hope this helps

 

[KeithT]

It has just about all been said above about Dcc.
So far as track feed is concerned just one or two connections are all you should need, assuming you are using brass track, that is effectively a busbar and providing you have good continuity between rail lengths they should suffice. Railclamps are a good investment from the outset avoiding possible bad connections with standard rail joiners due to frost. It is much simpler to fit the joiners at the outset rather than fiddling with them after the track has been laid. They are not cheap but one economy can be had by buying Peco joiners and running a saw blade through the slot to widen it.

 

[steve parberry]

Just to clarify about the issue with changing section from main central station to the booster section.

Due to other issues on my layout i had to have the break between the two units mid way up a gradient.
The trains can pass over with no input from the operator and indeed theey did down hill with no issues.
But when hauling a train up hill as the loco crossed section there was a defind stuter in the locos progress, this was not helped by the weight of the train pulling it back down hill.

When testing on the level there was no issues.

The reason i used the booster was to have an internal section using the main unit and an outside unit on the booster.
Thus keeping all stock inside in a warm store status (i.e.Always Powered) but the track outside switched off.

Any question feel free to drop me a PM.or use this thread.

 

[Gizzy]

The reason i used the booster was to have an internal section using the main unit and an outside unit on the booster.
Thus keeping all stock inside in a warm store status (i.e.Always Powered) but the track outside switched off.

Good idea! Like it....

 

[PaulRhB]

The thing to remember is to add up the current draw of all the locos, coaches and accessories and add a bit for the initial surge on start up. We also don't usually run them all at once so aren't drawing all the theoretical current, but allow for visitors and possibly actually running several at once. LGB locos tend to have very low draw which is why so many manage on one MTS unit wired to the track in one place. Depending on who you talk to though this in itself can lead to problems eventually as relying on just the railjoiners to carry the DCC signal can degrade it and cause interference which may lead to random movements or trains ignoring commands. The effect of this on decoders is also somewhat disputed with it being blamed for upsetting or cooking decoders by some.
In a perfect world you would have a large BUS cable all the way round with connections to each individual piece of track.

If your locos etc exceed or are at the limit of supply of your base station then you should seriously consider a booster as shown above with insulated joints in both rails where the booster and main unit sections meet.
This site has an excellent source of info on wiring sizes etc
http://www.dccconcepts.com/index_files/dcclayoutwiringwire.htm

 

[mike]

i have no regrets, about going down the digical route..the only chips which have ever gone wrong, were thouse that were miss used,badly installed.. 3 i think..over 10 year,1 i drowned ,running in heavey rain, the cab was awash with rain water, 1 blew on a yellow bernina, traped wire for manufacture.. and a v52 blew as its motors wre worn out, drawing more amps than the decoda was capabvle off. some i killed, through not following good advice....you get out off this hobbie, only what you put in....

 

[Cliff George]

Can I ask about boosters, would I be correct in saying that these are added power units into separated sections of the railway so each section has sufficient power? If this is so I assume that will mean isolating these sections from each other .....

Lots of good advise has already been given and I can't disagree with any of it.

About boosters: the Lenz system has a slight twist whereby boosters can be used in parallel with each other in effect creating a 10A system from two 5A ones. This means that you may not need separated sections in your railway and have no need for isolating sections. It also alows you to start with a 5A system and make it into a 10A one without having to replace anything. Of course they will also work with power districts like all of the other systems do.

 

[shropshire lad]

Just to echo all the above, good advise from all.
To further Cliffs post a Lenz system with tethered throttle and 5amp output comes in at around £330 with another 5 amps a 2minute job to add on at around £185.
Navigators work well wirelessly with the multi receiver and Lenz kit.

 

[Phil]

I'm on analog at the moment, but most of my locos are all chipped
When i've used DCC everything is easy.. But can be hard to understand if you want to do more advanced tasks..
Massoth is the system i've used and its awesome!