2-10-2 Harzbulle - differences between 21812 and 24812 versions....?

[Zerogee]

I've been looking at the apparent differences to the technical specs of the LGB 21812 (loco number 99-7222-5) and 24812 (loco 99-7234-0).... both are the factory-chipped sound versions, but am I right in thinking that the main difference is in the smoke unit? The earlier 21812 seems to have a simple standard (non-pulsed) smoke unit in the funnel, while the 24812 has a (Massoth-supplied?) pulsed smoke unit?

If this is correct, has anyone here actually done a retro-fit of a Massoth pulsed smoker into the older 21812 (or 21811, which is the non-sound version)? I'm wondering how tricky it is to physically install the pulsed smoke unit, and if it's one of the latest Massoth type with the integrated decoder, how and where you would make connections to the factory-installed main board/decoder?

Thanks in advance for any advice and tips?

Jon.

 

[Neil Robinson]

I'm wondering how tricky it is to physically install the pulsed smoke unit, and if it's one of the latest Massoth type with the integrated decoder, how and where you would make connections to the factory-installed main board/decoder?

Thanks in advance for any advice and tips?

Jon.

I've not worked on any of these Harz locos so I can't be of much help other than suggesting a round topped version if space is a bit tight and/or you don't want to loose any weight.
Connections are a doodle. two wires go to the track, if needs be spliced into the pickup wires near the loco main board. The only other connections are the three pulse generator wires, even easier to connect. Simply unplug the three way plug from the main board and plug into the smoke unit. There is a three way plug on a lead fitted to the smoke unit that then plugs into the main board.

I think it normal practice to set the smoke unit to the same address as the loco.

With my Garratt I chose a different address as I kept the original serial only sound board with the parallel only pulsed smoker. It's no problem to switch my navigator to a "loco" on an adjacent address pre-programmed to parallel with the single function of turning the smoke on and off.

 

[mike]

Latest ones you set the adress to the same as the loco..rhen lock the cv on the smoke unit.. connection Wise it's straight track power..

 

[Zerogee]

Thanks Neil and Mike..... as a follow-up question, has anyone on here yet installed one of the new rounded smoke units and actually used the cylinder-smoke option on it? There are two extra downward-pointing output nozzles on the front of the unit, I gather you open up the holes in them if you want to make use of them?

When programming the smoke unit to the loco address, i'm guessing this is best done BEFORE installation, simply connecting the power leads of the smoker to the Massoth programming output - I assume the unit provides its own "load" to enable programming to take place?

Jon.

 

[Neil Robinson]

When programming the smoke unit to the loco address, i'm guessing this is best done BEFORE installation, simply connecting the power leads of the smoker to the Massoth programming output - I assume the unit provides its own "load" to enable programming to take place?

Jon.

Not even thought about that until now. The answer must be yes, with the heating element providing plenty of load.

 

[PhilP]

Thanks Neil and Mike..... as a follow-up question, has anyone on here yet installed one of the new rounded smoke units and actually used the cylinder-smoke option on it? There are two extra downward-pointing output nozzles on the front of the unit, I gather you open up the holes in them if you want to make use of them?

When programming the smoke unit to the loco address, i'm guessing this is best done BEFORE installation, simply connecting the power leads of the smoker to the Massoth programming output - I assume the unit provides its own "load" to enable programming to take place?

Jon.

Correct..
And you can lock the smoke unit..

 

[Zerogee]

Thanks Phil!
Jon.

 

[idlemarvel]

Thanks Neil and Mike..... as a follow-up question, has anyone on here yet installed one of the new rounded smoke units and actually used the cylinder-smoke option on it? There are two extra downward-pointing output nozzles on the front of the unit, I gather you open up the holes in them if you want to make use of them?
...

Not with the rounded one, but I recently fitted a new square one with the cylinder smoke option, there's a thread here of how I fitted the pipes, not with a Harz bull but a Saxon Meyer but the principle is the same.
https://www.gscalecentral.net/threa...-lgb-26841-0-4-4-0t-meyer.308105/#post-461968

 

[chasaitch]

Without taking mine to pieces I couldn't really tell you but I think by following the instillation instructions you wont go far wrong. I had a smoke unit installed in my old 99 222-5 ( fitted decoder) and it came back 2 chuffs. Reading CV 54 it showed as 66 (4 chuffs).So it was an internal inspection to discover that the smoke unit's dip switches was set for 2chuffs, reconfiguring them produced the right result. I can not give a definitive comment on programing the unit, I just didn't. What I did find was that there is a space inside the smoke box unit infront of the weights to which the decoder is mounted that the smoke unit is mounted that places it correctly for the chimney, no bodging necessary.

 

[idlemarvel]

Going back to the title of this thread, the difference in the prototypes is that they are different locomotive classes, built twenty years apart. 99-7222-5 (pre-1970 number 99-222) is a class 99.22 and was built in 1931. 99-7234-0 is a class 99.23 and was built between 1954 and 1956. The later class was longer and built in a different works but very similar in appearance. This is from Wikipedia sources. This is fresh in my mind as I am currently researching whether I can use a Harz bull as a 750mm gauge 2-10-2T as ran on various Saxony narrow gauge railways. They look similar and although a tad smaller the wheels (driving and carrying) are the same diameter. Whether I can bring myself to spend over £1000 on a loco is another matter!

 

[stockers]

The Saxony locos are noticeably smaller and their drive wheels are much smaller.

Saxony. 11.3 meters long. Drivers 800mm dia.

Harz. 12.5 m long. drivers 1 meter.dia,

 

[stockers]

Also the domes, cab and front end is quite different, irrespective of the differing feed waters heaters used.

I recon it's a fair bet that M/LGB will follow up the proposed Saxony 0-10-0 with the 2-10-2, using basically the same chassis.

 

[idlemarvel]

Thanks Alan. I should read Wikipedia more carefully. I was thrown by this from the class 99.22 entry:
Coupled wheel diameter 800 mm
Driving wheel diameter 1,000 mm
Carrying wheel diameter 550 mm

Not sure what the difference is between driving wheel and coupled wheel?

 

[dunnyrail]

Going back to the title of this thread, the difference in the prototypes is that they are different locomotive classes, built twenty years apart. 99-7222-5 (pre-1970 number 99-222) is a class 99.22 and was built in 1931. 99-7234-0 is a class 99.23 and was built between 1954 and 1956. The later class was longer and built in a different works but very similar in appearance. This is from Wikipedia sources. This is fresh in my mind as I am currently researching whether I can use a Harz bull as a 750mm gauge 2-10-2T as ran on various Saxony narrow gauge railways. They look similar and although a tad smaller the wheels (driving and carrying) are the same diameter. Whether I can bring myself to spend over £1000 on a loco is another matter!

You are in the same situation as I was many years back. Modelling the Harz there were no acceptible Mallets. So I used an LGB Black and Green Sachen Meyer to represent the Harz Locomotives that were present on my first visit. Once Train Line brought out the Harz Malletts, the LGB Sachens were traded in to assist with my 2 super Malletts purchase that I needed for my line. You are ckearly in a similar situation and why not use the Harz 2-10-2 as a stop gap if you can justify the dosh. However with the new LGB 0-10-0 you may have a shorter wait than I had. Plus these 0-10-0 would be a very suitable loco on your 750mm represented line till the correct thing comes along, which I think it may. There will be many in Germany pestering Marklin about this I am sure.
JonD

 

[stockers]

Thanks Alan. I should read Wikipedia more carefully. I was thrown by this from the class 99.22 entry:
Coupled wheel diameter 800 mm
Driving wheel diameter 1,000 mm
Carrying wheel diameter 550 mm

Not sure what the difference is between driving wheel and coupled wheel?

Odd that, isn't it. I would assume they were the same thing. Just perhaps, is the coupling rod pin at 800mm.??

 

[idlemarvel]

... You are ckearly in a similar situation and why not use the Harz 2-10-2 as a stop gap if you can justify the dosh. However with the new LGB 0-10-0 you may have a shorter wait than I had. Plus these 0-10-0 would be a very suitable loco on your 750mm represented line till the correct thing comes along, which I think it may. There will be many in Germany pestering Marklin about this I am sure.
JonD

Indeed. Good summary Jon. Maybe I should hope that Newqida bring out a copycat 2-10-2. I'm sure it would sell well!

 

[idlemarvel]

Odd that, isn't it. I would assume they were the same thing. Just perhaps, is the coupling rod pin at 800mm.??

I thought that but if you click the names on the Wikipedia entry for more information on coupling wheel and driving wheel it takes you to the same page (driving wheel) so I am inclined to think it is a mistake. The entry for class 99.23-24 just mentions driving wheel 1000mm.

 

[PaulRhB]

Yes driving and coupled wheels are definitely the same thing. As Stockers correctly says 222 and the 72xx series are similar but have quite a few differences. The LGB model is a combination of both length wise but incorporating a lot of the detail differences like tank & bunker steps plus the front pilot.
The 72xx series were effectively based on 222 and it was pretty similar after rebuilding work but was backdated to look original after the HSB took over even though it has the more modern equipment.
The Harz locos are a lot bigger than the Saxon ones and like said above saving will probably be rewarded by a real one soon. Note though that there are distinct types in the Saxon versions too in cabs and fittings, it's a minefield

 

[idlemarvel]

...why not use the Harz 2-10-2 as a stop gap if you can justify the dosh. However with the new LGB 0-10-0 you may have a shorter wait than I had...
JonD

I assume you are referring to the forthcoming LGB 20480 VIK? In terms of dosh that is even more expensive. Chalk Garden Rail are advertising it at £1,649.or a mere €1,674 (£1,470) from grootspoor. I'll have to carry on dreaming. Maybe they will bring out a more basic model without sound and synchronised smoke at a later date.

 

[dunnyrail]

I assume you are referring to the forthcoming LGB 20480 VIK? In terms of dosh that is even more expensive. Chalk Garden Rail are advertising it at £1,649.or a mere €1,674 (£1,470) from grootspoor. I'll have to carry on dreaming. Maybe they will bring out a more basic model without sound and synchronised smoke at a later date.

No I was refering to the fact that the 0-10-0 will be a good basis for chassis if they ever get round to doing the 2-10-2 you desire. However as you say will be expensive, start saving now!
JonD