18650 5Ah batteries

[Tony Walsham]

I guess I had better qualify that.
As far as I know the JayCar 18650 cells do not have individual protection. There is nothing in their literature saying they do. Plus they specify a particular multi-chemistry charger for the cells which charge one or two cells. Quite possibly the charger has the cell protection, but again there is no mention of it.

 

[ge_rik]

I've bought two sorts of 18650s so far. The NOT 5000mAh (from a UK based Co) - which are protected
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201056896378

and some tagged unprotected branded 3000mAh (again from the UK)
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/360970411157

As you can see the latter were more expensive and came with a data sheet which explained they were unprotected so gave instructions as to the minimum discharge. I think these are legit though as yet I've not done a test on them. The eBay shop for the latter batteries lists protected and unprotected 18650s
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Ecoluxshop

Rik

 

[tramcar trev]

Any further developments?

 

[Tony Walsham]

You could always look at multiple purchases of these:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-SAMSUNG-INR-IMR-18650-25R-2500mAh-20-35A-LiMn-3-7V-FLAT-TOP-BATTERIES-SELLER-/181489732707?pt=UK_ConsumerElectronics_Batteries_SM&hash=item2a41a18c63

 

[ge_rik]

Any further developments?

No, I've decided to hang on to them. Even though they are only 1500mAh they will do the job for now and were very cheap. My thinking is that I will either have to fork out for more expensive branded batts or go for other cheapo ones which will probably not live up to the claims on Ah.

Rik

 

[tramcar trev]

Even the Jaycar 2200mAh ones are at variance. And this is weird; if I connect them up to the charger in series as one 3.7v X 8.8Ah battery I get around a 6Ah readout via the charger. If I measure them individually I get around 1.3 ah... I'm wondering if cooler ambient temperatures have any effect on results?
Anyway found these and as you can see they are 5ah...;
Dear tramcartrev,

Thanks for your email.
Glad to tell you that the Capacity of the item is 5000mA
We have sold a lot of this items and the customers are satisfactory with it.
If you are interested in them ,we will be glad to receive your early order.
Best regards,
Hi-etech customer care
Click "respond" to reply through Messages, or go to your email to reply

Respond


From: tramcartrev
To: hi-etech
Subject: Details about item: tramcartrev sent a message about 4Pcs New 18650 3.7V-4.2V 5000MAH Li-ion Long Life Battery UK #201056896378
Sent Date: 29-Aug-14 09:45:11 AEST

Dear hi-etech,

Do you guarantee these batteries to be 5000mAh capacity?

- tramcartrev

4Pcs New 18650 3.7V-4.2V 5000MAH Li-ion Long Life Battery UK
4Pcs New 18650 3.7V-4.2V 5000MAH Li-ion Long Life Battery UK
Item Id: 201056896378
End time: 17-Sep-14 15:52:59 AEST
Seller:
hi-etech (1074901)
98.5% Positive Feedback
Member since 30-Dec-08 in United States
Location: NY, United States
Listing Status: This message was sent while the listing was active.

 

[PhilP]

<Aside>
Banner advert for Forklift Batteries!.. Would they have enough charge-density for you??

 

[tramcar trev]

<Aside>
Banner advert for Forklift Batteries!.. Would they have enough charge-density for you??

Lead acid batteries in all probability.... Really good if I had a forklift. O0

 

[PhilP]

Or Tower Car for when there is an overhead failure?


Here is one that `needs slight attention`!



Black Country Living Museum, 8-8-2014.

 

[ge_rik]

Even the Jaycar 2200mAh ones are at variance. And this is weird; if I connect them up to the charger in series as one 3.7v X 8.8Ah battery I get around a 6Ah readout via the charger. If I measure them individually I get around 1.3 ah... I'm wondering if cooler ambient temperatures have any effect on results?
Anyway found these and as you can see they are 5ah...;
Dear tramcartrev,

Thanks for your email.
Glad to tell you that the Capacity of the item is 5000mA
We have sold a lot of this items and the customers are satisfactory with it.
If you are interested in them ,we will be glad to receive your early order.
Best regards,
Hi-etech customer care
Click "respond" to reply through Messages, or go to your email to reply

Respond


From: tramcartrev
To: hi-etech
Subject: Details about item: tramcartrev sent a message about 4Pcs New 18650 3.7V-4.2V 5000MAH Li-ion Long Life Battery UK #201056896378
Sent Date: 29-Aug-14 09:45:11 AEST

Dear hi-etech,

Do you guarantee these batteries to be 5000mAh capacity?

- tramcartrev

4Pcs New 18650 3.7V-4.2V 5000MAH Li-ion Long Life Battery UK
4Pcs New 18650 3.7V-4.2V 5000MAH Li-ion Long Life Battery UK
Item Id: 201056896378
End time: 17-Sep-14 15:52:59 AEST
Seller:
hi-etech (1074901)
98.5% Positive Feedback
Member since 30-Dec-08 in United States
Location: NY, United States
Listing Status: This message was sent while the listing was active.

Now that's odd - these are the ones which I bought which actually came out as about 1500mAh - so where do they get the 5Ah figure from - apart from printed on the side of the battery?

Rik

 

[trammayo]

Or Tower Car for when there is an overhead failure?


Here is one that 'needs slight attention'!

[attachimg=1]

Black Country Living Museum, 8-8-2014.

Just missing a pair of trolleybooms!

 

[gregh]

Or Tower Car for when there is an overhead failure?

How about we try to keep on topic????

[quote author=Tramcar Trev link=topic=299306.msg325608#msg325608 date=1409300127]
Even the Jaycar 2200mAh ones are at variance. And this is weird; if I connect them up to the charger in series as one 3.7v X 8.8Ah battery I get around a 6Ah readout via the charger. If I measure them individually I get around 1.3 ah...&nbsp; I`m wondering if cooler ambient temperatures have any effect on results?
[/quote]
You must have had the 4 batteries in PARALLEL&nbsp; Trev.

Now what was this 6Ah reading?&nbsp; discharging or charging and at what current and to what voltage?

If you took the 8.8Ah battery and discharged it at say 1A,&nbsp; it would be `loafing` and you will get a higher capacity.&nbsp; If you then took one cell-2.2Ah and discharged it at the same 1A, it will have a lower capacity.&nbsp; Maybe this is why you get different results?

I will NEVER believe you can get 5Ah in one of those 18650&nbsp; cylinders.
This is an interesting website that shows test results for many brands of them.&nbsp;
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Common18650Summary%20UK.html

None of them exceed 3400mAh.
And here`s a graphic representation of energy density for different battery types.
(source:http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v414/n6861/images/414359aa.2.jpg)



If you do the maths for how much energy you can fit in a 18650 type, you find that a claim of 5000mAh is about 3 times that which is the max in the graph!

I remain a card-carrying skeptic.

 

[tramcar trev]

Greg, I got that reading from the IMax Charger.... It charges and discharges and gives you the capacity of the battery. One of the cells may have been faulty, I didn't pay that much attention..... When I posted the details of the 5Ah 18650's I assure you I had my tongue firmly in my cheek, notice my previous remarks on the topic.....
I think expectations of 5Ah in an 18650 is extremely optimistic, I was also annoyed that the ones from Jaycar did not come up to scratch either and when I get back on both legs I'll be taking them back. I expect that even Jaycar can be slipped a dud batch at some time.
Any number of 2.2Ah 18650's on eBay at a fraction of what Jaycar charge....
I took the liberty of alerting eBay to the fact that a "protected battery" contains internal circuitry to prevent over discharge, a protected battery is not a battery with heat shrink around it to protect it from abrasion..... These would be being manufactured by the million somewhere in deepest China and Chinese QC is not reknown for stringency so we would have to assume that the batteries that don't pass muster are sold off for whatever they market will pay rather than being destroyed or recycled.

 

[tramcar trev]

I did forget to post a link to the "genuine" article; http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2pcs-UltraFire-PCB-18650-3000mAh-Protected-Rechargeable-Li-ion-Battery-3-7V-/310689515244?pt=AU_Sport_Camping_Hiking_Lamps_Torches&hash=item485689c6ec&_uhb=1

Even then if you buy what guarantee of a real 3000mAh capacity do you get?

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fake+ultrafire+batteries

 

[ge_rik]

I've figured that the blue 5000mAh batts are unprotected - which I'm not comfortable with. I'm getting wary of so-called Trustfire batteries which seem to be those commonly pirated. I've tracked down this UK seller who tests and guarantees the Ah of their batteries. The price is clearly reflected in this but I'm beginning to wonder if, to be certain, I might invest in something like this....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-Panasonic-18650-3100mAh-Protected-3-7v-Li-ion-discharge-batteries-NCR18650A-/321496103780?pt=UK_ConsumerElectronics_Batteries_SM&hash=item4adaa93b64

Rik

PS - Certainly beats this supplier for price - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-GENUINE-PANASONIC-NCR-18650-A-LiIon-3100mAh-3-7V-FLAT-TOP-BATTERIES-UK-SELLER/181245285425

 

[ge_rik]

Now this one's interesting -
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2Pcs-UltraFire-18650-3-6-4-2V-4000mAh-Lithium-Batteries-Black-UK/351137142990

If you read the blurb it says .......

Specifications:
1. Brand: UltraFire
2. Type: 18650
3. Marking Capacity:4000mAh
4. Actual capacity: 1400-1600MAH
5. Voltage: 3.6-4.2v

I suppose they can claim they are being honest

Rik

 

[tramcar trev]

From reading the data Gregh posted links to I believe that 1400-1600mAh capacity is about as good as its going to get in the cheap ones. The Genuine article may do better but I have to draw a line and ask is it worth the extra dosh when even then I have no guarantees....
The "blue batteries" in the shrink wrapped cardboard boxes on the other hand are within spec for their rated capacity. The individual cells in those are protected too.

 

[tramcar trev]

I'm back onto this like a Terrier with a bone.
Ok so I recon the Jaycar 18650's are protected. Look closley at the pictures. There is an obvious thin wire running under the blue heatshrink to the - end from the + end. Then look at the pics of the - end. There is a small circular PCB there you can see the pattern of the woven fibreglass under the tinned copper, maybe something like this; http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3-5A-1S1P-18650-Li-ion-battery-cell-protection-circuit-board-PCB-PCM-assembly-/271556371200?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item3f3a056300
Because they are so expensive Im not prepared to take a scalpel to the heatshrink, I guess I could but Ross would get upset....
Ok so a meter shows no voltage( if I try and measure the battery voltage) yet the ballance charger finds the cells and charges them and if you disconnect before charging has finished it gets excited and beeps and tells me the connection is broken....
I'll accept praise for the soldering, I use an very hot iron ( 415 C) tin the wire, tin the battery, allow the battery to cool then quickly remelt the solder with the wire in touch....

 

[tramcar trev]

Pass the Webly, someone forgot to post the pipics

 

[ge_rik]

If you can see a circuit board it sounds like they are protected. I know for sure that the Samsung 3.1Ah batteries I bought are unprotected as they were listed as such. I'm not using the cheapo blues this time but will keep them in reserve.

Errr - still no pix..... How about a Smith and Wesson?

Rik