Zen Buddha Large scale decoders

[Neil Robinson]

you mean it's direction on the same polarity of DC is not consistent? Wow, never seen that.

Greg

I don't recall which brand of decoder but I've occasionally noticed something similar.
If memory servers me correctly a first attempt to run on DC after use on DCC would cause the loco to run in the same direction as the last time on DCC regardless of DC track polarity. All subsequent DC reversals would result in the loco travelling in the expected direction.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

I have seen this on old MRC decoders, I have a few... they reversed with a relay, and the turn on state of the relay was often wrong... commanding the direction once would sometimes fix, and twice always...

played real hell with my consists, as often one loco would try to run in the opposite direction from the rest that it was coupled to..

Not to worry though, they would quit and/or literally go up in smoke.... I got them for 10 or 5 bucks each, so I just used them for temporary fixes, still have about 10 or so of them... the prime mover sound sounded like an angry blender and the horn.. ugh... but they served their purpose...

Greg

 

[Cranford]

Moving on a 17 months, a few months ago, being a glutton for punishment I decided to revisit the Zen decoders, Zen Black with built in stay alive, very neat and compact unit, very clear instructions as how to connect and reprogramme etc. you can probably see where i am going now, the first 2 I returned to the supplier, both developed different faults, they were replaced , no hassle, the 3rd one was satisfactory but I found I could not reach maximum speed, seemed to be permanently on half speed.
I did the usual reset, checked cv for max speed all checked ok, thinking may be a motor problem , removed decoder and connected to spare motor on the bench, exactly the same result. This time I returned it to the main suppliers with a covering letter explaining the problem. I eventually received acknowledgement of receipt of said decoder and that it would be looked at, then Covid 19 jumped in. I emailed them and asked for an update, I was then asked to measure the DCC track voltage with a RMS meter, whatever that is, I have looked at the cost of the RMS meter I don't think it is something that most of us would have. HOW DO I MEASURE THE DCC VOLTAGE and WHY?
Any thoughts.

 

[idlemarvel]

Sounds like the supplier is asking you to diagnose a problem in their product. Based on 2 out of 3, possibly 3 out of 3 products you have bought being faulty, I think I would just ask for my money back on the third and move on.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Honestly, the all caps is not needed, especially when a simple google search of "measuring dcc rms voltage " gives you tons of answers.

so besides searching and seeing all the ways to measure it, connect a full wave bridge rectifier to the track, then a DC voltmeter to the output of the full wave bridge rectifier.

You could read this page: DCC FAQs

OK, now to the why?

For us, we should know the DCC voltage to be sure we don't have wiring issues, voltage drop, etc. that affects operation.

Another reason is that certain decoders do not work at the higher voltages usually used on G scale (the NMRA says the decoder should be able to withstand 27 volts, I run my layout at 24 on the rails).

Now, finally why did THEY ask you? To be sure you did not exceed the rated voltage of the decoder.

I notice you changed from the Large Scale "Budda" rated at 5 amps, to the smaller "Black" decoder rated at 1.1 amps PEAK, not continuous, and I cannot find any specifications on their site as to max voltage... in fact no specifications. Clearly these decoders are intended for HO and smaller.

So what locos are you running from these?

Greg

 

[LGeoB]

Hi All,

I recently fitted the large scale DCC Concepts decoder to a Aristocraft C-16. All worked fine on the bench but out on the track, the decoder kept tripping with, I presume, over current detection. There is a led on the decoder that flashes when this occurs. I believe the over current detector is too sensitive to transients caused by dirty track. Anyway I tested the decoder on the bench with a different motor and the same occurred when I disconnected and reconnected the supply. Eventually i blew the decoder! BTW this was at a low voltage - standard Lenz command station with the 15VA transformer.

Geoff

 

[Greg Elmassian]

So, they do not give a continuous power rating on their decoders, only a peak rating. In my experience, the peak rating means nothing.

The Aristo C16 is not known for high current consumption, and the advertised rating on the Zen LS decoder is 5 amps.

No offense to the manufacturer, but something stinks.

Greg

 

[LGeoB]

So, they do not give a continuous power rating on their decoders, only a peak rating. In my experience, the peak rating means nothing.

The Aristo C16 is not known for high current consumption, and the advertised rating on the Zen LS decoder is 5 amps.

No offense to the manufacturer, but something stinks.

Greg

BTW I then used an old DCC Concepts large scale decoder and it works fine.

 

[Cranford]

Honestly, the all caps is not needed, especially when a simple google search of "measuring dcc rms voltage " gives you tons of answers.

so besides searching and seeing all the ways to measure it, connect a full wave bridge rectifier to the track, then a DC voltmeter to the output of the full wave bridge rectifier.

You could read this page: DCC FAQs

OK, now to the why?

For us, we should know the DCC voltage to be sure we don't have wiring issues, voltage drop, etc. that affects operation.

Another reason is that certain decoders do not work at the higher voltages usually used on G scale (the NMRA says the decoder should be able to withstand 27 volts, I run my layout at 24 on the rails).

Now, finally why did THEY ask you? To be sure you did not exceed the rated voltage of the decoder.

I notice you changed from the Large Scale "Budda" rated at 5 amps, to the smaller "Black" decoder rated at 1.1 amps PEAK, not continuous, and I cannot find any specifications on their site as to max voltage... in fact no specifications. Clearly these decoders are intended for HO and smaller.

So what locos are you running from these?

Greg

The Zen Black is a large scale decoder with the higher rating, how you think I may try to fit a HO decoder into a G scale loco I do not comprehend, the loco is a single motor USA trains dockside switcher, the track power from the PIKO dcc system is 20v so well under any max. rating one would expect.
Zen Black “Buddha” Decoder: O and large scale. Up to 5 amps. 6 fn. Built-in high power stay alive.
I am sorry that you have to use phrases like "full bridge rectifier" when the majority of us out here want to purchase and install an item that does its job. We are not all that technically minded to that degree.I was only asking for members thoughts anyway and thank you for them.

 

[The Shed]

PIKO 35000 Power Supply and a PIKO 35010 Central station?

May or may not come as a surprise, as in the picture below using a Bridge Rectifier as a means to measure the DCC signal, the track voltage is somewhat higher than 20V, nearer to 23.50V, (22.10V + 1.40V added from the Bridge Rectifier).



Picture below is an extract from the latest s-9.1_electrical_standards_2020 dated 07/03/2020, so the question to be asked is, does a
Zen Black “Buddha” Decoder: O and large scale. Up to 5 amps. 6 fn. Built-in high power stay alive, meet the specifications as listed below?

 

[Hutch]

<SNIP>the loco is a single motor USA trains dockside switcher,<SNIP>

IF it is the diecast 0-6-0 USA Trains dockside switcher, the one I have started binding because of the piston in the smoke unit which caused intermittent stalling with high electrical consumption. It finally locked up all together. In a moment of disgust I removed the connecting rod between the smoke piston and the drive gear.

Just a thought...

---Hutch

 

[PhilP]

A simple visual check of the decoder, may give some clues..

If there is a sizeable electrolytic capacitor, you should be able to read the voltage rating on the can.. If it is a 25V rated component, it stands a good-chance the decoder is not built with enough headroom for large-scale use.

NOTE: This is a little bit of a generalisation, but big capacitors might-well be for stay-alive, so should be rated for full voltage.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Moving on a 17 months, a few months ago, being a glutton for punishment I decided to revisit the Zen decoders, Zen Black with built in stay alive, very neat and compact unit, very clear instructions as how to connect and reprogramme etc. you can probably see where i am going now, the first 2 I returned to the supplier, both developed different faults, they were replaced , no hassle, the 3rd one was satisfactory but I found I could not reach maximum speed, seemed to be permanently on half speed.
I did the usual reset, checked cv for max speed all checked ok, thinking may be a motor problem , removed decoder and connected to spare motor on the bench, exactly the same result. This time I returned it to the main suppliers with a covering letter explaining the problem. I eventually received acknowledgement of receipt of said decoder and that it would be looked at, then Covid 19 jumped in. I emailed them and asked for an update, I was then asked to measure the DCC track voltage with a RMS meter, whatever that is, I have looked at the cost of the RMS meter I don't think it is something that most of us would have. HOW DO I MEASURE THE DCC VOLTAGE and WHY?
Any thoughts.

how can I say you used the HO decoder?: read your post quoted above. you say "zen black" NOT "zen black budda" only the budda is large scale.

since you said you revisited the decoders, and now you have what seems to be an overvoltage or overcurrent situation, i think what I said is quite logical.

by the way, a full wave bridge might cost you one dollar... and the reading is free on the internet...

Greg

 

[Cranford]

IF it is the diecast 0-6-0 USA Trains dockside switcher, the one I have started binding because of the piston in the smoke unit which caused intermittent stalling with high electrical consumption. It finally locked up all together. In a moment of disgust I removed the connecting rod between the smoke piston and the drive gear.

Just a thought...

---Hutch

Thanks Hutch but on this occasion there are no problems with the loco. Runs superbly on analogue.