Wheelslip

[Moonraker]

A while ago I scratch built the South Australian Yx class loco shown in the photo. It uses a Bachmann 4-6-0 chassis which I modified to be a 2-6-0. It is battery radio controlled with the batteries in the boiler. From the start, the loco has always had a problem....it will pull next to nothing as a result of wheel slip. On straight level track, it will pull (only) two bogie coaches. As soon as the coaches enter an R5 curve or a 1 in 50 incline then the loco wheel slips to a halt. The loco is actually a 2-4-0 because the drivers are unsprung and the centre (flangeless) driver does not actually touch the track.

The loco (without tender) weighs 1.7Kg. Please can someone tell me the weight of a Bachmann Annie (or similar) 4-6-0 so that I can tell if my loco is just too light?

Thanks
Peter Lucas
MyLocoSound

 

[Tony Walsham]

Peter, that is a gem.
Just fill it with lead and it will be just fine.

 

[dutchelm]

I don't know about Bachmann but a basic Stainz is 2kg. I think you need more lead.

 

[Rhinochugger]

I'd concur - add some weight; the Annie has a hefty lump of pig iron in the boiler - can't say that I've weighed mine, but I would have thought you could go up to 2.5 - 3.0 kg.

I increased my old Mining Mogul to about 2.7kg from memory without any harm.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Can you tell us what generation "Big Hauler" it was, since the geartrains changed over the years, and the amount of weight they can handle changes also.

Here's a reference for spotting the versions of Big Haulers

4-6-0 Bachmann Big Hauler

Greg Elmassian web site on large scale trains and garden railroads, cigars, and computers

elmassian.com

Greg

 

[Paul M]

Put more weight in, but test it bit by bit, else you may overload or strip the motor and gears

 

[Bill Barnwell]

all my mid size engines (2-6, 4-6-0 etc. are between 5 and 6 kg

 

[Rhinochugger]

The only way that you'll strip gears is if you are harsh on the throttle; if you're gentle when starting and stopping, then additional weight won't be a problem

 

[Greg Elmassian]

I have to disagree Rhino, heavier loads (the train AND the weight) will wear the gears more quickly.

Certain versions have very weak gearboxes / gears .... that is why I asked for what generation the loco is...

To reinforce my statement, he has run the loco to the point of wheelslip, that should speak volumes.

 

[Rhinochugger]

I have to disagree Rhino, heavier loads (the train AND the weight) will wear the gears more quickly.

Certain versions have very weak gearboxes / gears .... that is why I asked for what generation the loco is...

To reinforce my statement, he has run the loco to the point of wheelslip, that should speak volumes.

Yes, that was probably a bit gung-ho, but Peter has achieved wheelslip with two coaches which is pretty light.

I think once you are running a consist of more than five bogie vehicles, then the train weight would become a consideration.

I haven't yet worn out a proprietary gearbox .......... that doesn't mean that I won't

 

[Greg Elmassian]

A question back at you Rhino, what generation are your locos, and do you have grades?

Perhaps Peter's coaches have excessive rolling friction?

Here in the US, a man called Barry made a replacement gearbox and frame, bulletproof and would pull paint off walls.... (pick your phrase).... you could put 5 to 7 pounds of weight in the loco... but alas no more.... they are still occasionally on the market here, I realize that does nothing for Peter, unfortunately.

Greg

 

[Rhinochugger]

A question back at you Rhino, what generation are your locos, and do you have grades?

Perhaps Peter's coaches have excessive rolling friction?

Here in the US, a man called Barry made a replacement gearbox and frame, bulletproof and would pull paint off walls.... (pick your phrase).... you could put 5 to 7 pounds of weight in the loco... but alas no more.... they are still occasionally on the market here, I realize that does nothing for Peter, unfortunately.

Greg

The 10-wheeler is an Annie version (metal rods), I have a couple of Connies with replacement brass gears and a Centennial - (and a C-19 which isn't really an issue) oh, and a 45 tonner which to my knowledge has not been a problematical model.

I also have a couple of scratch / kit built locos with Gauge 1 gearboxes from UK manufacturers.

Yep, I have grades - and I bet you're going to ask me how steep and to be honest I can't remember. Toad's Ridge is the steepest, probably rising 150 mm in approx 7 metres - say 1 in 50 which is as much as you really want.

I remember Barry Olsen's chassis - when they were available, I didn't need one, when I needed one there was a long queue, and I scratchbuilt a 2-6-2: it's Achilles' heel is the lack of movement in the journals, meaning that it can only put down all the available power on a dead flat section of track, otherwise only two or three of the wheels are actually hard down on the rail - the scratchbuilder's nightmare, and another cause of wheelslip.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Actually I think you are incorrect about no movement in the journals, the front axle has about 1/4" of movement, we ignore the middle axle since it is only there for looks...

so one axle with some movement in a x-4-x configuration.

Did you ever run one on your layout? With all the extra weight you could add, this is the first I have heard of your specific complaint.

Some information here:

Barry's Big Trains drives

Greg Elmassian web site on large scale trains and garden railroads, cigars, and computers

elmassian.com

not completed or cleaned up, but the only place I have found a specific page on BBT drives. I was friends with him, and his advisor/tester Dave Goodson / TOC / The Old Curmudgeon

Interested in your experience, as this is new data to me, and I am trying to complete this page. I can get a few of the drives if need be, everyone I know that has one loves them.

Greg

 

[Moonraker]

My Bachmann chassis was not taken from a locomotive, it was purchased as a spare part from Bachmann. However I took Greg's advice and checked his link for the version number. The chassis is a version 6 and therefore none of the driving wheels are sprung. The front bogie (truck) is sprung but is very near the end of its travel so may be lifting the front driver a bit. Anyway I will try adding weight so thanks to all for the suggestions.

Regards
Peter Lucas
MyLocoSound

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Well, it's great you have the latest chassis, it can take more weight.

You might test to see where the center of the weight is, and add weight to bring center over middle driver.

Also, you might have to add stronger springs.

Another thing that might be an issue, that you sort of implied, is you really do not want much of the loco weight on the pilot truck, the normal technique is to weight the truck and have a weak spring so that the loco weight is concentrated on the drivers.

Hope this helps.

Greg

 

[Moonraker]

Greg,

The pilot truck (front bogie to many of us) is often a problem. You need it to be lightly sprung to keep weight on the drivers but not so light that it derails each time it meets a pine needle or blade of grass.

Regards
Peter Lucas
MyLocoSound

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Yes, I found that putting a weight on the pilot itself, and a light spring works best. Heavier spring takes tractive effort from the loco and impedes tracking around curves.

a thin flat piece of lead has worked well, like the old self adhesive wheel weights (we cannot use lead any more here, too many babys breaking out of cribs to start gnawing on wheel weights)

Greg

 

[dunnyrail]

The 10-wheeler is an Annie version (metal rods), I have a couple of Connies with replacement brass gears and a Centennial - (and a C-19 which isn't really an issue) oh, and a 45 tonner which to my knowledge has not been a problematical model.

I also have a couple of scratch / kit built locos with Gauge 1 gearboxes from UK manufacturers.

Yep, I have grades - and I bet you're going to ask me how steep and to be honest I can't remember. Toad's Ridge is the steepest, probably rising 150 mm in approx 7 metres - say 1 in 50 which is as much as you really want.

I remember Barry Olsen's chassis - when they were available, I didn't need one, when I needed one there was a long queue, and I scratchbuilt a 2-6-2: it's Achilles' heel is the lack of movement in the journals, meaning that it can only put down all the available power on a dead flat section of track, otherwise only two or three of the wheels are actually hard down on the rail - the scratchbuilder's nightmare, and another cause of wheelslip.

Slightly off-pist as it were but look at the Mike Sharman Flexichas system, uses centre supported bearing and beams to ensure all wheels on the track at all times. I built all of my 0 Gauge Locomotives with the system both 4 and 6 wheelers. Made a real difference to running and also current pickup.

 

[Rhinochugger]

Slightly off-pist as it were but look at the Mike Sharman Flexichas system, uses centre supported bearing and beams to ensure all wheels on the track at all times. I built all of my 0 Gauge Locomotives with the system both 4 and 6 wheelers. Made a real difference to running and also current pickup.

The big issue in our scale is finding sliding horn blocks (journals).

I re-built the Yeti chassis using Slater's 0 gauge sprung horn blocks - so far so good, but then you hit the next obstacle, pivoting (hinged) coupling rods, which is why I converted the Yeti to chain drive without coupling rods.

 

[Rhinochugger]

Actually I think you are incorrect about no movement in the journals, the front axle has about 1/4" of movement, we ignore the middle axle since it is only there for looks...

so one axle with some movement in a x-4-x configuration.

Did you ever run one on your layout? With all the extra weight you could add, this is the first I have heard of your specific complaint.

Some information here:

Barry's Big Trains drives

Greg Elmassian web site on large scale trains and garden railroads, cigars, and computers

elmassian.com

not completed or cleaned up, but the only place I have found a specific page on BBT drives. I was friends with him, and his advisor/tester Dave Goodson / TOC / The Old Curmudgeon

Interested in your experience, as this is new data to me, and I am trying to complete this page. I can get a few of the drives if need be, everyone I know that has one loves them.

Greg

I wasn't meaning Barry's chassis - I was referring to my scratchbuilt version - Barry's were engineered, mine is made with pretty basic tools, and limited materials that could be readily bought.