What water should I use?

O

Old Tom

Registered
I've got a couple of OO gauge Hornby Live Steamers that can only (so the instructions say) be run using distilled water. The reason stated is that tap water contains impurities which can damage the boiler - but my trusty 40 year old Mamod TE1 traction engine has only ever been run using tap water and is still in excellent nick today :thumbup:

So my question is, what should I use when firing the HK Porter when it arrives? And if the answer is distilled, anyone got a link to a cheap supplier? Hornby stuff costs a fortune.

Cheers

Tom
 
Regarding water, there are several readily available options to tap water. If at all possible you should not use tap water in such small live steamers.

When the National Model Railroaders convention was held in Detroit, Michigan a couple years ago, Hornby set up a manufacturer's exhibit with an operating live steam layout. The one thing not included in their advance planning was a source for distilled water. When deciding whether to run, one manager finally said, let's run on tap water until it quits. That should be warning enough.

As for options, you can use filtered rain water or water from a small still. I suggest that if you go the rainwater route, wait until it has rained for a while to wash your roof/collector, etc., then collect and filter it with a coffee filter. This may be least expensive way to get good water. Small electric stills work well, but they are expensive to operate.

Regards,

Will Lindley
 
There's been a couple of threads on this subject, If you search the forum history you will get a whole slew of advice!! some good some not. The whole thrust is IF you can get distilled water cheaply where you are then use it but in the UK the supply of REAL distilled water is a problem, so next best options come into play. Rain water is good just filter it to get all the solids out, Clothes dryers with a water trough or tank are also good, same applys about the solids. WHat you don't need is water with any mineral content like tap water as the small tubes in our little steamers will fur up and get restricted flow and it takes more heat to reach the water through the calcium deposits in the boiler. just think of your kettle!!....................Paul.........
 
Further to Minimans comments, calcium deposits CAN be removed from boilers by mild acid solutions such as citric acid (available from Chemists) or even vinigar, but it is NOT a good idea to do this too often as you cannot see what is going on and therefore some calcium may be left behind, and some parts of the boiler may be overtreated, far better for it not to be there in the first place.

In the larger scales that I have been involved with over the years, it is quite usual to use a commercial water treatment to maintain any calcium and other solids in solution in the water, but I have heard no mention of this method in this gauge. 'Water treatment' can cause occasional (slight) problems with injectors, but as we dont tend to have these on our gauge locos is there any reason, apart from cost, why we don't use water treatments?

(From the TVBL)
 
Many thanks to you all. Sorry if this was going over old ground :(

I've got 2 rainwater butts and a condensing tumble drier so it looks like just a bit of filtering is required.

Cheers
 
bobg said:
Further to Minimans comments, calcium deposits CAN be removed from boilers by mild acid solutions such as citric acid (available from Chemists) or even vinigar, but it is NOT a good idea to do this too often as you cannot see what is going on and therefore some calcium may be left behind, and some parts of the boiler may be overtreated, far better for it not to be there in the first place.

In the larger scales that I have been involved with over the years, it is quite usual to use a commercial water treatment to maintain any calcium and other solids in solution in the water, but I have heard no mention of this method in this gauge. 'Water treatment' can cause occasional (slight) problems with injectors, but as we dont tend to have these on our gauge locos is there any reason, apart from cost, why we don't use water treatments?

(From the TVBL)
Click to expand...
I think the reason would be even in solution the deposits would still be a problem for the small bore pipes and cylinders? and of course the cost of the treatment and keeping it "on the shelf" Don't know how long it can be treated before use?
 
Thinking on, there would also be a problem in treating the small amounts that we use, or as minimans says storing large amounts of treated water. As far as I am aware there is no quoted timescale for retaining treated water.

Also I believe that the solids are retained in solution, not in suspension, a slightly different situation. They are then normally removed by "blowing down" at the end of the session, as they stay in the boiler just increasing in concentration.
 
The instructions for my Regner say distilled water can be used if 5 to 10% tap water is added, so that should be ok for your Porter I would have thought. Personally I use water from a dehumidifier as the wife has it running whenever washing is drying indoors. This is fine as it has not impurities at all, essentially being water from the atmosphere. Unless it is also sucking in ash from the volcano as well ?
If you have rain water butts go down that road , once filtered it will be fine , I would too if I had a convenient place to put one.
 
Garry,

Did you mean added to de-ionized water, not distilled? There seems little point in contaminating distilled water with chlorine and calcium etc., but it might help stop the action of the de-ionized water removing the zinc from the boiler material.

Nobody has mentioned using water from a domestic water filter, or does that count as de-ionized?
 
bobg said:
... Nobody has mentioned using water from a domestic water filter ...
Click to expand...

I've wondered this, since I've got one.
An extra tap by the kitchen sink, and a large replaceable filter underneath, driven directly from the main water pipe.
 
minimans said:
There's been a couple of threads on this subject, If you search the forum history you will get a whole slew of advice!! some good some not. The whole thrust is IF you can get distilled water cheaply where you are then use it but in the UK the supply of REAL distilled water is a problem, so next best options come into play. Rain water is good just filter it to get all the solids out, Clothes dryers with a water trough or tank are also good, same applys about the solids. WHat you don't need is water with any mineral content like tap water as the small tubes in our little steamers will fur up and get restricted flow and it takes more heat to reach the water through the calcium deposits in the boiler. just think of your kettle!!....................Paul.........
Click to expand...

This is good advice because we have been through all this before. But let me reiterate my choice.:-

1 - Filtered Raiwater is my last choice as there could be some acids in the rain. Remember all the fuss about acid rain in the past, if your rain is coming from water that was near a Power Station or Conifer Forests this could be a problem.
2 - Dehumidifier Water. This is without doubt the safest form of water. Look at the cost of your puffers,.

I got my Dehumidifier in an end of season sale at a DIY joint for well less than £100. Plus it gets all the dampness out of my Brick Store where I keep all my Electric Control equipment for the Garden. We know the cost of an LGB MTS set up so there is extra value in this beast. Plus you can let wifey have some for the Iron! Brownie points too.

There are other ways to get dehumidified water, it is I believe possible to get it from the fridge. But do not ask me how. I am not talking about Ice Cubes here as this is just normally frozen tap water. Thw washing machine option mentioned in this thread may be another viable source. But DO NOT BE UNCERTAIN. The damage you could do to your puffers is just not worth taking risks.
JonD
 
Getting water from the fridge or freezer these days can be difficult as most of them are now "Frost Free", but if you happen to be like me (tight a...) and are running one till it dies, you might still be able to collect the water as you de-frost it, but it should still be filtered as there can be all sorts (not liquorice) floating about in it. Trouble is I think I would use more than I could collect, as there isn't that much and I only de-frost the freezer about twice a year.

I agree with your comments about acid rain, another problem at the moment is all this volcanic ash, have you looked closely at your car after a rain shower?
 
bobg said:
Garry,

Did you mean added to de-ionized water, not distilled? There seems little point in contaminating distilled water with chlorine and calcium etc., but it might help stop the action of the de-ionized water removing the zinc from the boiler material.

Nobody has mentioned using water from a domestic water filter, or does that count as de-ionized?
Click to expand...
" use distilled water to which 3-5% tap water has been added " to quote directly from the manual. I don't understand the reasoning behind this either , or the chemistry behind it, but its there for all to see on the Regner website under the downloads , Lumberjack in English.
 
Cheers Garry, that certainly clears that one up, but as to why, that is still a mystery.

I suppoose a miniamal amount of calcium would ensure that any minor seapages would seal up, but it shouldn't really be neccesary.

Steam on!!!
 
I store my filtered rainwater in a cool dark place otherwise alge will grow in it and you'll have to filter it again.Don't store it in plastic milk bottles like I did either because the damn things start to leak after a few weeks.
 
I have read that distilled water is so pure that it leaches some of the alloy out of the copper - a very small amount of tap water inhibits this reaction in some way - confirmation required from a chemist

PHIL
 
Santafemad said:
I have read that distilled water is so pure that it leaches some of the alloy out of the copper - a very small amount of tap water inhibits this reaction in some way - confirmation required from a chemist

PHIL
Click to expand...

What we have to remember in this game is everything is a compromise,as long as we use the right oils and gasses for the right places we won't go far wrong.Using water from most taps aint going to stop you're engines for many years.My kettle is as clean today as it was two years ago when I first bought it and I use it at least five times a day,seven days a week,do we fire our engines that often?
 
Santafemad said:
I have read that distilled water is so pure that it leaches some of the alloy out of the copper - a very small amount of tap water inhibits this reaction in some way - confirmation required from a chemist

PHIL
Click to expand...

Are you sure that's not de- ionised water that was referred to there? Which, seeing as it was quite happy being ionised until some chemist type came along and prodded it, is quite keen to get back to it's ionised state and will attack the copper to do so.

I can't see- although I admit my knowledge of chemistry is very basic- how adding a small amount of tap water would prevent it occuring regardless.
 
Ferrysteam said:
Santafemad said:
I have read that distilled water is so pure that it leaches some of the alloy out of the copper - a very small amount of tap water inhibits this reaction in some way - confirmation required from a chemist

PHIL
Click to expand...

What we have to remember in this game is everything is a compromise,as long as we use the right oils and gasses for the right places we won't go far wrong.Using water from most taps aint going to stop you're engines for many years.My kettle is as clean today as it was two years ago when I first bought it and I use it at least five times a day,seven days a week,do we fire our engines that often?
Click to expand...
You should see the state of my kettle!! I have to defurr it at least every couple of month's ot the spout will clogg to the point of being usless..........................
 
My kettle is as clean today as it was two years ago when I first bought it and I use it at least five times a day,seven days a week,do we fire our engines that often?
Click to expand...

This is probably the best indicator that here is about the state of local water. I have been known with my larger scale, when running at a "new" railway, to check the kettle in the tea room. If your kettle remains clear then you will generally be fine, unfortunately, here, our tap water is from boreholes, and Severn Trent have a habit of changing over when they feel the need. Sometimes our water is so hard it leaves cottonwool like "floaters" in my tipple when the ice cubes melt, so it doesn't do to trust it too far (in my case not at all), but I suppose that's my fault because they do say north of the border, the only thing you should add to good whiskey........ is more whiskey!:party:
 
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