What water do you use?

Fred2179G

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All the typical "undercounter" home units have about a 4 gallon tank and 3 to 7 filters. They work at line pressure.

Commercial systems use high pressure reverse osmosis membranes, and I think that tankless one does do, since they talk about noise suppression, must be the pump.

Upon research, that's what they do, a larger RO membrane and a pressure pump.

Mine makes enough silently for ice cubes (sorry you guys in the UK) and drinking water for us and the cat, and watering plants.

If you needed more water, I guess the extra expense and power usage might be justified.

Greg
 

ol_hogger

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Everybody have had their say about water, but me:
Boiler water brings us two enemies: scale and corrosion.

Scale
Scale forms when previously dissolved minerals remain after the water has been evaporated away. Chemically speaking these minerals are salts which dissolve into (salt-) ions. These are the ions we need to get rid of.

Nonetheless, the water molecule will form ions, too. (Look up "pH" for details.) Speaking of "de-ionized water" is not overly correct. What you can get at best is de-mineralized water (regardless of method: distillation, ion-exchange, reverse-osmosis).

Corrosion
Corrosion is caused by acid and oxygen. Water will adsorb air, and with it carbon dioxide (the solution of which is carbonic acid), and other gasses like oxygen. This is where distillation comes in. Freshly distilled water, hot from the still, is gas-free and will remain so if kept in a well stoppered glass bottle.
Plastic packaging in which distilled water is distributed, however, is not gas tight. What you can buy in a plastic jerry can will contain carbonic acid and oxygen, no matter whether it is labelled distilled, ion-exchanged, or reverse-osmosis purified.

You would have to bring it to the boil again before filling the boiler which is what the old timers did in order to save fuel (alcohol in most cases).

The corrosive effect of acid can be moderated by buffering. Mineral salts can work as a chemical buffer. Some salts may even eliminate oxygen (reduction). By adding a minute amount of mineral buffer (aka tap water) to your boiler water corrosive potential may be greatly reduced.

In short
Whichever de-mineralized water you want to use:
Best: Freshly pre-boil your water, no matter what the label says. (Reserve one of these little one-cup-water-heaters for that purpose exclusively.)
Second best: Add a little tap water when filling your pump bottle as you will not like to touch it when it is hot.
Good practice: Emptying out the boiler every now and then will flush out the accumulated remainder of salt ions.
 
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siclick33

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After posting this thread, I stumbled across this page on the Roundhouse website, which seems to sum it up pretty well.


(Click on the ‘technical’ tab, then ‘technical info’).
 
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Interesting:

I would argue with freezer ice... have you ever "tasted" an ice cube from a place with crummy water? You can taste the salts on the outside. But, if you rinse it off, due to the way pure water freezes before water with salts, the rinsed off ice will be pretty pure, let that melt and it's pretty good. The bottom line is the energy you used to freeze the ice probably offsets the cost of buying distilled water.

Also it has been shown over and over that pure distilled water by itself is not the best (a little "normal" water added will fix this), distilled water is actually the most active to allow "dezincification" since it is the "hungriest" for ions.

From the site:

Well, water is just water isn't it? Actually no, it's not quite that simple.
Our miniature steam boilers are made mostly of copper, with some bronze and silver solder and there are also brass steam fittings for the steam to negotiate before it exits to atmosphere. Although all these items are made from non-ferrous metals and therefore do not rust, they are subject to chemical attack in other ways. Here is a quick run down of the common sources of water with their pros and conns.

Tap water - in soft water areas, this is fine but in hard water areas it can quickly lead to a build up of 'lime scale' on the inner surfaces of the boiler, fittings and pipe work. The easiest way of establishing what your water is like is to look inside your kettle. If it's thick with white 'lime scale' deposits, avoid using it.

Rain water - free of charge and quite good if you can get sufficient quantity. It must be filtered to get all the dirt, grit and other rubbish out of it and the filters used by home brewers and wine makers does an excellent job.

De-ionized water - this is often sold for use in steam irons and the general opinion amongst the small scale live steam community is that it should not be used. Because of the way it is 'purified', it can cause long term problems by slowly removing zinc from the brass fittings - commonly called de-zincification.

Purified water - tricky one this, as it is not always clear how purification has taken place. Shops that sell it will variously tell you it is de-ionized, or distilled. If you can't be sure that it is distilled, don't use it.

De-humidifier water - another good source. A de-humidifier is a bit like a fridge in reverse, and the water that collects in the tank is quite safe to use.

Refrigerator/deep freezer ice - good. It is basically moisture in the air that has frozen and once thawed out is good to use if you can get sufficient quantity.

Distilled water - the best water you can use but unfortunately it is difficult to get hold of. If buying distilled water, be very sure that it actually is. Some retail outlets will sell 'purified' or 'de-ionized' water (for steam irons or car batteries) and tell you it is distilled but it is actually quite different.

You will probably find that a combination of these will supply all your needs but if you store or stock pile collected water, be sure to filter it well before use and change the containers from time to time. If not, you will find algae and other deposits forming in the water which will cause steaming problems. Dirt, algae and other debris can cause the water to foam as it boils and this will cause priming to the cylinders and syphoning at the safety valve.
 
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siclick33

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Interesting:

I would argue with freezer ice... have you ever "tasted" an ice cube from a place with crummy water? You can taste the salts on the outside. But, if you rinse it off, due to the way pure water freezes before water with salts, the rinsed off ice will be pretty pure, let that melt and it's pretty good. The bottom line is the energy you used to freeze the ice probably offsets the cost of buying distilled water.

Also it has been shown over and over that pure distilled water by itself is not the best (a little "normal" water added will fix this), distilled water is actually the most active to allow "dezincification" since it is the "hungriest" for ions.

From the site:

Well, water is just water isn't it? Actually no, it's not quite that simple.
Our miniature steam boilers are made mostly of copper, with some bronze and silver solder and there are also brass steam fittings for the steam to negotiate before it exits to atmosphere. Although all these items are made from non-ferrous metals and therefore do not rust, they are subject to chemical attack in other ways. Here is a quick run down of the common sources of water with their pros and conns.

Tap water - in soft water areas, this is fine but in hard water areas it can quickly lead to a build up of 'lime scale' on the inner surfaces of the boiler, fittings and pipe work. The easiest way of establishing what your water is like is to look inside your kettle. If it's thick with white 'lime scale' deposits, avoid using it.

Rain water - free of charge and quite good if you can get sufficient quantity. It must be filtered to get all the dirt, grit and other rubbish out of it and the filters used by home brewers and wine makers does an excellent job.

De-ionized water - this is often sold for use in steam irons and the general opinion amongst the small scale live steam community is that it should not be used. Because of the way it is 'purified', it can cause long term problems by slowly removing zinc from the brass fittings - commonly called de-zincification.

Purified water - tricky one this, as it is not always clear how purification has taken place. Shops that sell it will variously tell you it is de-ionized, or distilled. If you can't be sure that it is distilled, don't use it.

De-humidifier water - another good source. A de-humidifier is a bit like a fridge in reverse, and the water that collects in the tank is quite safe to use.

Refrigerator/deep freezer ice - good. It is basically moisture in the air that has frozen and once thawed out is good to use if you can get sufficient quantity.

Distilled water - the best water you can use but unfortunately it is difficult to get hold of. If buying distilled water, be very sure that it actually is. Some retail outlets will sell 'purified' or 'de-ionized' water (for steam irons or car batteries) and tell you it is distilled but it is actually quite different.

You will probably find that a combination of these will supply all your needs but if you store or stock pile collected water, be sure to filter it well before use and change the containers from time to time. If not, you will find algae and other deposits forming in the water which will cause steaming problems. Dirt, algae and other debris can cause the water to foam as it boils and this will cause priming to the cylinders and syphoning at the safety valve.
It is my understanding that distilled water is fine, as it still contains ions so de-zincification won’t occur.

I thought it was de-ionized water that needed a dash of tap water, but I’m not a chemist!
 
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Distilled water has fewer impurities than RO water...

the fewer the impurities, the more affinity for other molecules... it's worse actually.

you can check the resistance of deionized water as compared to distilled water and convince yourself.

de-ionized water is not COMPLETELY de-ionized, it's just the process to "refine" it.

you also need to understand the distilled water you can purchase is steam distilled, but the normal deionized water you can purchase is "consumer grade" not laboratory grade.

So, there are posts out there saying di water is purer, this is true... also a Ferrari is faster than a volkswagen, but perhaps you are not buying a Ferrari.

Greg
 
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siclick33

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Distilled water has fewer impurities than RO water...

the fewer the impurities, the more affinity for other molecules... it's worse actually.

you can check the resistance of deionized water as compared to distilled water and convince yourself.

de-ionized water is not COMPLETELY de-ionized, it's just the process to "refine" it.

you also need to understand the distilled water you can purchase is steam distilled, but the normal deionized water you can purchase is "consumer grade" not laboratory grade.

So, there are posts out there saying di water is purer, this is true... also a Ferrari is faster than a volkswagen, but perhaps you are not buying a Ferrari.

Greg
De-ionized water and RO water are not the same.

Edited to add: I wouldn’t be buying de-ionized water; I make it myself (hence the reason this thread was started). It would be great if I could use it but it appears that it is too pure. I measure the dissolved solids in my DI water and it reads zero, so I am guessing it’s pretty pure but, as I say, I’m not a chemist.
 
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Sorry, you are correct, de-ionized water is done with ion exchange with tanks of resin balls.. another synonym is deminerialized, usually a 2 step process, one to remove positive ions and the other to remove negative ions.

RO water is often used/mistaken for di water... and di water is often treated with RO after. or RO is a pre-filter to the DI process (different reasons.)

In the case of RO, DI, Distilled, you are trying to remove impurities. Common misconception is that ions are not impurities... they are, and usually metals...

just get it really pure and then add some tap water to remove it's appetite to suck all the zinc out of your brass boiler and fittings and solder (it will try more than just zinc)

Greg
 

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If you live in a soft water area like I do then you can use tap water with Roundhouse locos. That's from Roundhouse themselves. You can use a Calgon tester to see if your water is soft.
 

JimmyB

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It would seem the OP has done a bunk, he is just registered as a guest!
 

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tac foley

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I live about twelve miles norf of Dunnyrail, and the water that comes out of OUR taps is almost solid. A slight exaggeration perhaps, but if I say that a Brita filter lasts, at the most, around 18 - 20 DAYS before requiring replacement, you'll get the picture.

Next time I use my desk-top distiller, I'll take a pic of the remains in the catch tank, so you can see what I mean. It's not a pretty sight.
 

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I live about twelve miles norf of Dunnyrail, and the water that comes out of OUR taps is almost solid. A slight exaggeration perhaps, but if I say that a Brita filter lasts, at the most, around 18 - 20 DAYS before requiring replacement, you'll get the picture.

Next time I use my desk-top distiller, I'll take a pic of the remains in the catch tank, so you can see what I mean. It's not a pretty sight.
Yes, I lived in Huntingdon, not far from you and lime-scale was a huge problem.
 

Paul M

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I live about 12 miles south of Jon D, our water is pretty bad, in fact I'm sure the only reasihalf our pipes don't leak is because there's a thick layer of scale over everything
 
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The reason I have the home distiller is water quality. After boiling a gallon, there is a tablespoon of yellow liquid in the machine, the consistency of wd-40.... yuck.

We are the last stop on the water supply from Northern California, south of us is Mexico, and their water has the added benefit of microscopic organisms that give you the runs.
 

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The reason I have the home distiller is water quality. After boiling a gallon, there is a tablespoon of yellow liquid in the machine, the consistency of wd-40.... yuck.

We are the last stop on the water supply from Northern California, south of us is Mexico, and their water has the added benefit of microscopic organisms that give you the runs.

Would not have thought that water supplies in the U.S. could be so bad - considering that using chlorine to sanitise the water originated there! Limescale is also a PITA!
 

Paul M

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I did a water safety course at work. Britain's water is the cleanest, or in water speak, more wholesome, in the world. We are the only country with where you can safely drink the water from any household tap that is connected to the mains. You may not actually like the taste, but it is safe to drink.