Two very dumb Revo DCC questions

[DGE-Railroad]

I'm currently waiting on a second decoder to hook my second Revo DCC rx to.

I've been spending the time studying the manual to work out how to add a second rx+decoder installation, a third and so on. The first one was a breeze; TX and RX were pre-linked, the RX just talked to the decoder on the default address of 3, everything worked out of the box.

Maybe I'm overthinking it and I'm probably being thick, but I can't find an obvious explanation in the Revo manual to explain the process for adding more units.

Here are my questions;
1) You can set/select the RX number in the handset, but do I just use the bind button to link more RXs and then the TX will auto-assign them the next number?
2) Nowhere have I found a way to tell the Revo system the decoder address. Do I even need to for it to see a decoder with a non-default address, or does it just perform a read from the decoder? That's the only thing that seems to make sense as I can select the DCC address length type in the Revo but that's about it..

Any illumination would be greatfully received

 

[Greg Elmassian]

so the Aristo systems have this concept of a "cab" and the cab is what is matched to a loco. So when locos are bound to a throttle, they get an id, and then you map the id to a cab.

(sort of a mess, but it was the only way they could figure out consisting in the original system, I was in the beta group and actually advising from before the product hit)

You also see the concept of profiles that have up to 25 locos in them...

so it seems working within a profile, you link your new receiver to a new ID (the actual id of receiver, and pick a new id, and often it selects the next one, but you should check you are not re-using an old one...)

apparently in the loco profile is where you specify the actual DCC address...

Hutch has used this for a while, and apparently mastered it... a lot of layers of mappings...

I may be wrong, but in this case, I think I would leave all locos at DCC address 3, since you actually call the loco by profile number, and run by cabs that select profile numbers.

Hutch, is this right?


Greg

 

[DGE-Railroad]

Thanks Greg

I think that's what I'd supposed. The transmitter will have a unique link with each receiver, assigned to a cab name to keep things user-friendly and that stores the high-level configuration.

Ordinarily keeping the DCC addresses different between decoders would be mandatory but in this case, you *could* keep them all at the default of 3 because each one is only communicating with its dedicated receiver and nothing else, the command and control isolation is happening at the Revo level with the TX/RX bind

I'm just not convinced the decoder *has" to be set at 3 though, especially since there's the Revo track RX offering. That being the case, the RX must perform a scan I guess and use whatever decoder address it discovers?

It'd be great to hear from someone like Hutch who's jumped through these hoops. He threatened to write a dummies guide a while back I think but no doubt life got in the way since then!

 

[Hutch]

Thanks Greg

I think that's what I'd supposed. The transmitter will have a unique link with each receiver, assigned to a cab name to keep things user-friendly and that stores the high-level configuration.

Ordinarily keeping the DCC addresses different between decoders would be mandatory but in this case, you *could* keep them all at the default of 3 because each one is only communicating with its dedicated receiver and nothing else, the command and control isolation is happening at the Revo level with the TX/RX bind

I'm just not convinced the decoder *has" to be set at 3 though, especially since there's the Revo track RX offering. That being the case, the RX must perform a scan I guess and use whatever decoder address it discovers?

It'd be great to hear from someone like Hutch who's jumped through these hoops. He threatened to write a dummies guide a while back I think but no doubt life got in the way since then!

Yes, it needs new documentation. Unhappily I am not a good enough writer to do this.

Greg is right, you specify the address in the "Cab" that you select for the locomotive. I have just specified the existing DCC address on the locomotive when adding it to the Transmitter (central station). In fact, I just received a new (to me) engine and reused the existing address and configuration by assigning a cab, then doing a doing a read all to that engine while on the programming track. Then I checked the important (to me) CVs in the Loksound decoder by reading them one at a time. I pretty much look at the receiver as if it were transparent, the transmitter (for me) is the central station and the existing (or new) DCC boards are the actually decoders for the commands.

Hopefully I understood the question and made a sensible answer.

I'm sure I left something out, and my mind isn't what I used to think it was.

---Hutch

 

[DGE-Railroad]

Thanks Hutch

So one issue I face is that I have no programming track as such, everything is dead rail because I run battery. I may be missing the point but if I had a dcc powered track, this wouldn't be an attractive solution what I do have is my ESU decoder programmer; I would normally pull the decoder from the installation to use it, so during that process it's not connected to the Revolution receiver.

I think I don't understand why the need for a programming track, Can I just stick the loco on an unpowered piece of track, power the loco up from battery and have the Revolution perform a read (or if necessary, write) of any CVs of interest?

I would like to use my programmer to first program the decoder with the specifics (including the loco number as the address), then put it into the loco, hook up the Revo RX and address it. That's what'd seem to make sense, but m not sure it'd work like that

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Agreed, you can use ANY DCC address in the decoder. But to keep things simple I would change them to 3 before adding to the system, one less thing to have to remember, one more simplifying item.

Yes, I would be using the Revo to put the decoder in "service mode", which is what you do on a dedicated programming track. I don't know if there are any limitations in the Revo service mode though, some decoders use very high numbers for CV's, that might be an issue.

Sounds like you are on your way, and it's great we have Hutch here who has experience with this system... I'm sorry to say I have not played with mine yet, but when I do, I will try to make a better manual on my site, more step by step, or at least a better way of making clear the throttle >> cab >> profile >> loco id relationship, and probably the suggestion to leave all decoders at the default 3 address, one less thing to have to remember, and also no having to re-address the decoder if you do a hard reset.

Greg

 

[Hutch]

Thanks Hutch

So one issue I face is that I have no programming track as such, everything is dead rail because I run battery. I may be missing the point but if I had a dcc powered track, this wouldn't be an attractive solution what I do have is my ESU decoder programmer; I would normally pull the decoder from the installation to use it, so during that process it's not connected to the Revolution receiver.

I think I don't understand why the need for a programming track, Can I just stick the loco on an unpowered piece of track, power the loco up from battery and have the Revolution perform a read (or if necessary, write) of any CVs of interest?

I would like to use my programmer to first program the decoder with the specifics (including the loco number as the address), then put it into the loco, hook up the Revo RX and address it. That's what'd seem to make sense, but m not sure it'd work like that

I had to research it since I have no battery powered locomotives. You are effectively on a programming track (it appears) because there is nothing else to draw current. So you can freely switch between modes at the transmitter as you feel the need.

I am currently trying to decide how much filtering in a non-DCC Revolution it would take to run it on the DCC track. I realize that I would have to use the non-DCC transmitter with it, but I had already invested in non-DCC Revolutions before I realised that I had half a dozen engines that had come with factory DCC from or DCC from the previous owner.

Since Christmas 1986 the stuff has accumulated.
A horrible mix of analogue DC, Revolution DCC, and Revolution non-DCC, makes for headaches .
---Hutch

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Hutch, just so I understand, you are asking how to put DCC on the rails, but also use that to power your revo dcc systems?

Very little filtering should be required. put a full wave bridge of sufficient amperage, and then maybe a .1, a .01 and about 300 mfd electrolytic at 35v or higher across the bridge output.

Very little "voltage" filtering should be necessary (thus only 300 mfd), but the chance for noise on the line is good, so the .1 and .01 will filter any nasty spikes.

if there is a full wave bridge on the input in the revo onboard unit, theoretically you could just add that filtering right after the bridge to the decoder, but these parts are cheap and small enough not to cause issues and then you avoid trying to solder to the revo board.

Greg

 

[PhilP]

Greg,
I read it as Hutch wants to use track-power to a DC/Analogue Revo system?

Hutch??

 

[Hutch]

Greg,
I read it as Hutch wants to use track-power to a DC/Analogue Revo system?

Hutch??

Yes, I think the high freq DCC should filter easily to DC within the Traditional Revolution engine so I could run it on a DCC track. Just looking for confirmation. It looks like GregElmassian agrees about easy filtering and PhilP understands my unorthodox question. I currently use DC track power to my various Revo Locomotives, I would sometimes like to share the DCC power track with them. Hopefully no magic smoke will be released when I try this.
---Thanks Hutch

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Hutch, you are not the first person to do this, I forget who, but it was successful.

Still I would recommend the bridge and filtering, just to avoid noise issues.

Best,

Greg

 

[DGE-Railroad]

Yes, I think the high freq DCC should filter easily to DC within the Traditional Revolution engine so I could run it on a DCC track. Just looking for confirmation. It looks like GregElmassian agrees about easy filtering and PhilP understands my unorthodox question. I currently use DC track power to my various Revo Locomotives, I would sometimes like to share the DCC power track with them. Hopefully no magic smoke will be released when I try this.
---Thanks Hutch

Hutch, Revo already have you covered...
Magic Smoke Control Board

 

[DGE-Railroad]

Just to say I finally got around to hooking up the second Revo DCC receiver and decoder today so understand the process better;

Assigning a second loco/cab in the Revo system automatically 'one-up's the expected decoder address.
(I expect in theory you could reprogram this through the handset but I like to all my configuration in the ESU programmer, so it's a case of setting the expected 'next' address there, when i do the rest of the setup)

This Revo DCC RX, which i bought some time after the main handset package wasn't bound (which you'd expect). I performed a bind using the next Receiver ID which I chose in the handset
It all worked like a charm.

For some reason, 2 out of 2 ESU decoders now have been direction-reversed when operated by the Revo handset:
Setup on the decoder on the bench using the programmer and Forward in the programmer = Forward motion + Headlight on (Tail light off)
Move the decoder to the Revo DCC RX and Forward = backward motion and Tail light on (Headlight off)

Just one of lifes little annoyances - I just add a reverse in the decoder configuration checklist when i do set things up, but I wonder if everyone experiences this...

 

[Hutch]

On my Revo DCC handset, "Arrow pointing left" is forward, "Arrow pointing right" is reverse. Is that the default on yours also?

---Hutch

 

[DGE-Railroad]

On my Revo DCC handset, "Arrow pointing left" is forward, "Arrow pointing right" is reverse. Is that the default on yours also?

---Hutch

Yep. It seems instinctively the wrong way around to me.
I set the decoder to invert this in my decoder software (whatever CV that's changing behind the scenes) which sorts it out

 

[Hutch]

Yep. It seems instinctively the wrong way around to me.
I set the decoder to invert this in my decoder software (whatever CV that's changing behind the scenes) which sorts it out

Me too!
---Hutch

 

[Hutch]

After some research, it appears that thee arrow directions were picked scientifically by someone standing outside a continuous loop with the engine running clockwise. I've already lost the web page that I found information. It was a "Club" website.
---Hutch

 

[dunnyrail]

On my Revo DCC handset, "Arrow pointing left" is forward, "Arrow pointing right" is reverse. Is that the default on yours also?

---Hutch

After some research, it appears that thee arrow directions were picked scientifically by someone standing outside a continuous loop with the engine running clockwise. I've already lost the web page that I found information. It was a "Club" website.
---Hutch

Does it really matter when you can revise the source direction? My Battery Locomotives are mostly controlled by Fosworks but I have Revo and Deltang. All are set to go left or right as I look at the train by the relevant turn ir press if a button. Some of my Locomotives point the wrong way for my chosen line but as I do things they are being changed that Left is Chimney first, but that is for me as that is the orientation of my Garden and chosen prototype. Those that go the “wrong way” are put out in the track to match the controller. Simples.