Trying to de-confuse "what is DCC"

[Greg Elmassian]

For people who are new, and even many who have used "DCC" for years, there are some significant differences in features, capabilities, and architectures between::

True DCC

AND

Systems that use DCC decoders.

They are not the same.

The important difference is a true DCC system utilizes a "command station"... all the throttles communicate with the command station, and the command station controls ALL the locos. NO throttle directly communicates with the loco. (how this is packages is NOT really germane, it's the architecture and function).

With a true DCC system, the command station, and thus ALL the throttles know what locos are running at what speeds in what direction. This allows locos to be handed over to other throttles at the same speed, to take over a consist, and if you want to stop all running locos there are a number of options, besides just stopping one.

Many new systems are out that utilize DCC decoders, but the throttle talks directly to the loco. Because there is no command station (central intelligence) then trying to hand off locos to another throttle, or having throttle "A" be able to stop throttle "B"'s runaway becomes very difficult or impossible.

There are many more advantages to using a command station, and this is a reason that "true" DCC systems still use this architecture.

Many people do not realize the distinctions or advantages of this architecture, but it is there, and the advantages are real and can be enumerated.

This is not to educate people who don't care, but perhaps make some people aware that using a DCC decoder with a proprietary system is NOT DCC and will have some missing features from a TRUE DCC system.

Greg

p.s. I won't debate this with the people who just want to argue, it's for edification

 

[Moonraker]

For people who are new, and even many who have used "DCC" for years, there are some significant differences in features, capabilities, and architectures between::

True DCC

AND

Systems that use DCC decoders.

They are not the same.

The important difference is a true DCC system utilizes a "command station"... all the throttles communicate with the command station, and the command station controls ALL the locos. NO throttle directly communicates with the loco. (how this is packages is NOT really germane, it's the architecture and function).

With a true DCC system, the command station, and thus ALL the throttles know what locos are running at what speeds in what direction. This allows locos to be handed over to other throttles at the same speed, to take over a consist, and if you want to stop all running locos there are a number of options, besides just stopping one.

Many new systems are out that utilize DCC decoders, but the throttle talks directly to the loco. Because there is no command station (central intelligence) then trying to hand off locos to another throttle, or having throttle "A" be able to stop throttle "B"'s runaway becomes very difficult or impossible.

There are many more advantages to using a command station, and this is a reason that "true" DCC systems still use this architecture.

Many people do not realize the distinctions or advantages of this architecture, but it is there, and the advantages are real and can be enumerated.

This is not to educate people who don't care, but perhaps make some people aware that using a DCC decoder with a proprietary system is NOT DCC and will have some missing features from a TRUE DCC system.

Greg

p.s. I won't debate this with the people who just want to argue, it's for edification

The new Hornby HM7000 DCC controller claims to be able to change loco CVs while the loco is running on the track and without affecting other locos on the same track. Presumably this makes it not a "true" DCC system .... but a very big improvement on the standard?

Regards
Peter Lucas
MyLocoSound

 

[Greg Elmassian]

that is POM - programming on the main, been supported by DCC systems for years... completely in the standard... My NCE system and it's predecessor has been doing this for at least 25 years.

the "True" part is clearly stated above, the architecture is throttle >>> command station >>> rails >>> decoder in loco

not having a command station function is the biggest difference, there is thus "no central intelligence", there are more differences, but this one really affects features and performance. It appears that the Hornby system is wireless from an app to a bluetooth receiver in the loco... no command station, not DCC, wireless direct to the loco, not DCC.... the decoder itself is probably DCC.

You missed or did not digest this:

"The important difference is a true DCC system utilizes a "command station"... all the throttles communicate with the command station, and the command station controls ALL the locos. NO throttle directly communicates with the loco. (how this is packages is NOT really germane, it's the architecture and function)."

 

[LGB333]

For people who are new, and even many who have used "DCC" for years, there are some significant differences in features, capabilities, and architectures between::

True DCC

AND

Systems that use DCC decoders.

They are not the same.

The important difference is a true DCC system utilizes a "command station"... all the throttles communicate with the command station, and the command station controls ALL the locos. NO throttle directly communicates with the loco. (how this is packages is NOT really germane, it's the architecture and function).

With a true DCC system, the command station, and thus ALL the throttles know what locos are running at what speeds in what direction. This allows locos to be handed over to other throttles at the same speed, to take over a consist, and if you want to stop all running locos there are a number of options, besides just stopping one.

Many new systems are out that utilize DCC decoders, but the throttle talks directly to the loco. Because there is no command station (central intelligence) then trying to hand off locos to another throttle, or having throttle "A" be able to stop throttle "B"'s runaway becomes very difficult or impossible.

There are many more advantages to using a command station, and this is a reason that "true" DCC systems still use this architecture.

Many people do not realize the distinctions or advantages of this architecture, but it is there, and the advantages are real and can be enumerated.

This is not to educate people who don't care, but perhaps make some people aware that using a DCC decoder with a proprietary system is NOT DCC and will have some missing features from a TRUE DCC system.

Greg

p.s. I won't debate this with the people who just want to argue, it's for edification

Greg - So, based upon the True DCC definition, then it appears that the newly released Soundtraxx Blunami decoders are not really True DCC. I haven't investigated them yet, but they apparently can be controlled directly by a wireless device bypassing a DCC command station.

 

[JimmyB]

Greg - So, based upon the True DCC definition, then it appears that the newly released Soundtraxx Blunami decoders are not really True DCC. I haven't investigated them yet, but they apparently can be controlled directly by a wireless device bypassing a DCC command station.

I think, more, not traditional DCC.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Exactly....

Being "true" DCC because of the signal to the decoder not going through the rails is really not as important as the lack of the central intelligence of the command station. Lots of differences in capability that is not immediately obvious.

For people who are used to R/C where it's one controller to one loco and never the twain shall meet, these people probably won't care or notice. To people who have used the features of DCC, it does make a difference in what you can do.

I think you have it.

Greg

 

[Steve Seidensticker]

Hi Thomas,

The Blunami system is both the "true DCC" as Greg has defined it or the direct control where the Bluenami app communicates directly with, and controls, the loco. When a Soundtraxx Blunami decoder first powers up it looks for and responds to DCC signals coming through the tracks from a command station. Its bluetooth chip also advertises itself over the air. If there is a Blunami app running on an iPhone or iPad in the vicinity the app can connect to the decoder and take control of the loco. This is not automatic. The app user must click on the advertising loco listed in the app. If the operator wishes to go back to "true DCC" operation they just cycle power on the loco (tip it off the rails for a second or two).

The strength of Blunami is in the app. It is very sophisticated and powerful. Reading and writing CVs is very much like Decoder Pro in that it allows the user to set up a loco based based on the functions and effects desired, without having to deal with CV numbers, indexed CVs, arcane manuals etc. For example, horn selection is from a drop down menu that lists the horn by maker and number of chimes. It even allows the user to audition the horn without selecting it. Bell selection, momentum, lighting effects are also very straightforward. The app also has very powerful and easy-to-use consisting and speed matching.

I expect that many Blunami users will take advantage of the app to set up their locos and then run them using DCC from a command station. Of course, if your locos are battery powered you can also run them, individually or in consist.

Note of interest: Soundtraxx is now shipping the large scale version of the Blunami decoder (BLU-4408).

Disclaimer: I am not associated with Soundtraxx in any way. I have been peripherally involved with the app and the BlueRailDCC receiver made by Tam Valley Depot.

Steve Seidensticker

 

[Paul M]

For people who are used to R/C where it's one controller to one loco

Not quite true. I have one controller for all my engines, of which I can run 2 at the same time. Some of my more sophisticated friends have 1 controller for all their locos which can be controlled at the same time. Although with the live steamers, testing 2 locos at the same time isn't always a good idea

 

[PhilP]

Hi Thomas,

The Blunami system is both the "true DCC" as Greg has defined it or the direct control where the Bluenami app communicates directly with, and controls, the loco. When a Soundtraxx Blunami decoder first powers up it looks for and responds to DCC signals coming through the tracks from a command station. Its bluetooth chip also advertises itself over the air. If there is a Blunami app running on an iPhone or iPad in the vicinity the app can connect to the decoder and take control of the loco. This is not automatic. The app user must click on the advertising loco listed in the app. If the operator wishes to go back to "true DCC" operation they just cycle power on the loco (tip it off the rails for a second or two).

The strength of Blunami is in the app. It is very sophisticated and powerful. Reading and writing CVs is very much like Decoder Pro in that it allows the user to set up a loco based based on the functions and effects desired, without having to deal with CV numbers, indexed CVs, arcane manuals etc. For example, horn selection is from a drop down menu that lists the horn by maker and number of chimes. It even allows the user to audition the horn without selecting it. Bell selection, momentum, lighting effects are also very straightforward. The app also has very powerful and easy-to-use consisting and speed matching.

I expect that many Blunami users will take advantage of the app to set up their locos and then run them using DCC from a command station. Of course, if your locos are battery powered you can also run them, individually or in consist.

Note of interest: Soundtraxx is now shipping the large scale version of the Blunami decoder (BLU-4408).

Disclaimer: I am not associated with Soundtraxx in any way. I have been peripherally involved with the app and the BlueRailDCC receiver made by Tam Valley Depot.

Steve Seidensticker

Is it true that the app is only presently available for IOS (Apple) devices?

I have been led to believe both this, and the H&M/Hornby offering, have only been released for IOS?

PhilP

 

[maxi-model]

Not quite true. I have one controller for all my engines, of which I can run 2 at the same time. Some of my more sophisticated friends have 1 controller for all their locos which can be controlled at the same time. Although with the live steamers, testing 2 locos at the same time isn't always a good idea

Fosworks Tx4.10R transmitter allows 10 locos to be run simultaneously Paul Fosworks I am sure the are other makes.

I use the 3R, so 3 locos at one time. My feeble mind is at a stretch with just 2 I use Tony Walsham's RCS TX's for non-DCC decoder equipped locos.

 

[JimmyB]

Fosworks Tx4.10R transmitter allows 10 locos to be run simultaneously Paul Fosworks I am sure the are other makes.

I use the 3R, so 3 locos at one time. My feeble mind is at a stretch with just 2 I use Tony Walsham's RCS TX's for non-DCC decoder equipped locos.

And to add to that Micron (Deltang) with their selecta can control 12 locos, but I find 2 at a time more than enough for me.

 

[beavercreek]

More 'non true DCC systems'

There is the S-Cab control system which utilises a wireless 'Throttle' controller which connects to a loco with an S-Cab receiver (LXR) which is connected to a DCC decoder.
Thus not needing a 'central' command station.
It can work with multiple locos (each one would have a receiver and a DCC decoder).
( Radio Control )

I have used this system and although I have Massoth DCC (with a command station) for my layout, I can have a DCC decoder-equiped battery loco running (on my own or others layouts) with DCC operation of the loco(s) directly controlled by the S-Cab.
This enables all of the usual functions of a DCC decoder including sound if available but no need for a command station or track power (unless you wish to use it that way).

Airwire 900 is another wireless battery loco system that can work with onboard DCC decoders.. Like the S-Cab, it also has a throttle controller and an on-board receiver system that can connect to a DCC decoder.
But as the receiver (G4X™ Motion Decoder) is pretty much fully functional without need for a DCC decoder, it is probably just the DCC sound that would keep the DCC decoder on the loco... or you could use Phoenix sound systems (2K and onwards) which are also DCC compatible. .
It can supply up to 3 amps to the DCC decoder.
( CVP Products AirWire For Large Scales ).
I have not used this system myself but know those that do and they swear by it...

 

[LGB333]

Exactly....

Being "true" DCC because of the signal to the decoder not going through the rails is really not as important as the lack of the central intelligence of the command station. Lots of differences in capability that is not immediately obvious.

For people who are used to R/C where it's one controller to one loco and never the twain shall meet, these people probably won't care or notice. To people who have used the features of DCC, it does make a difference in what you can do.

I think you have it.

Greg

Greg, I checked the description of the new Soundtraxx Blunami decoders and it states:
The Blunami BLU-4408
The BLU-4408 is designed to wirelessly operate models with higher stall currents such as some S, O, and large scale locomotives; this decoder features easy-to-use terminal blocks for no-fault wiring and a higher audio amplifier for awesome volume, indoors or out. Blunami decoders can be operated in three different ways: DC, DCC and Wireless mode. Using the Blunami app (iOS versions 8 or later), you can operate your locomotive with incredible ease of use.

So, they do have True DCC capability as one of the operating options.

 

[Steve Seidensticker]

Is it true that the app is only presently available for IOS (Apple) devices?

I have been led to believe both this, and the H&M/Hornby offering, have only been released for IOS?

Yes, Blunami is currently IOS only. However, an Android version is in the works. I don't know how close it is to being released. I don't have any insight to the Hornby product.

Steve

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Greg, I checked the description of the new Soundtraxx Blunami decoders and it states:
The Blunami BLU-4408
The BLU-4408 is designed to wirelessly operate models with higher stall currents such as some S, O, and large scale locomotives; this decoder features easy-to-use terminal blocks for no-fault wiring and a higher audio amplifier for awesome volume, indoors or out. Blunami decoders can be operated in three different ways: DC, DCC and Wireless mode. Using the Blunami app (iOS versions 8 or later), you can operate your locomotive with incredible ease of use.

So, they do have True DCC capability as one of the operating options.

I'll revise my statement to make my intent clear... (you are correct the decoder has DCC)

Using the app from a phone over bluetooth to the decoder is not DCC strictly, and has no "central intelligence" that a true DCC system does.

The important point of this thread is the distinction between a DCC SYSTEM that has the required Command Station which has the central intelligence for all locos running and all throttles, vs. the one throttle directly and independently to a locomotive.

This mode misses many of the features of a true DCC system. Again this thread was prompted by a person who did not see the distinction between the 2 different architectures. DCC as a system is way beyond just the speed and direction commands.

Greg