TRAINLINE MALLET mods to a Green Trainline Mallet.
- Thread starter dunnyrail
- Start date
Hmm Brass Taps, don't mention them. Was not going to do a Post till later today as it was too late to take any decent pics yesterday. But in the too-ing and thro-ing of yesterdays work I somehow managed to smash all 3 on the Green Mallet. So I made some more out of Copper Wire and Brass Tube. Quite a fun little exercise really.stockers said:
As for running, after some of the work I decided to see if the little Oil Pump made any difference to the running around my LGB Rad 2 Curves up the Grade to Harzegerode. One of the things that became very apparent was that the REAR Bogie was trying to climb the Rails when running Bunker First. No Derailment but the climb was very noticeable with a distinct Bobbing up and Down. Also as I am busy doing Scenic Work in that Curve area at the moment, a Factory was on the Line. As the Loco gently nudged it I noticed that the Rear Bogie was still running after the Front one had stopped. This would almost certainly confirm the Weight Distribution Differences mentioned by Z. Of interest running the same test Chimney First no Rail climbing was evident, nor was the climbing a problem on my other R2 at the end of Alexisbad in either direction. Interesting.
Many thanks Muns for the Massoth info. Looks like I need to get my Massoth CS and Handsets sorted. Will probably get Glendale to do them for me.
More Pics later today. I am pretty well there now with all the Mods. Just one or two to do I think and then complete the weathering. Will take pics though before I do the Weathering and the Pipe-works get painted. You can see them better unpainted.
As for the Gearbox Mods, my Black one may or may not be an early one. Though I got it from Glendale in the right timeframe for the mods to have been done, it may have been with them before. However I have never had any problems thus far (Wood severely touched) so am hoping for the best long term.
JonD
Zerogee
Clencher's Bogleman
Peter (Beddhist) very, very kindly translated some relevant parts of the GB Profi article for me, and was OK about me posting them here for everyone's interest.... I acknowledge that the original copyright to the German text belongs to Gartenbahn Profi magazine, and if they or anyone else has any problem with me posting this English translation that it will of course be removed.
Here is Peter's translation of the most relevant part of the GBP article - a couple of comments are his, where the direct translation didn't 100% make sense!
...................
Raised motor positioning
Back in our test in GBP 1/14 we mentioned the "limping" of the rear
drive train and proposed as solution an additional bolt on each side of
the frame. The effect of these bolts is that the rear drive axle, which
is moved by the motor's worm drive directly via a diagonally cut gear
and therefore also moves sideways, pushes the outer frame against the
link rods and especially the excenter. [Actually, this is nonsense. The
bolts obviously PREVENT this from happening.] During further tests with
another loco, especially when going slow with a cold engine, slight
hesitation became apparent, even on the front bogie, which has no outer
frame.
TL themselves have found the solution to the puzzle: Worm gear and gear
engage a little too tightly. Even a slightly raised position of the
Buehler motors of about 0.5mm in both engine blocks results in smooth
running of the drive trains. This small modification will soon be
integrated into production, so that smooth running will appear from the
start and not only when the engine has warmed up. Those, who already
have the Mallet in their model roundhouse can implement a fix with
little effort: in the centre of the opened gear block glue a 0.5mm thin
plate of non corroding metal (e.g. brass), but not plastic. This will
separate the gears just enough, while still letting them mesh
sufficiently - and that's it! A video (link in the box at the end of
this article or scan the QR code) shows the success of this
modification. Now the Mallet shows silky smooth running over the entire
speed range right from the start and not only at operating temperature.
Whether this mod is necessary every owner can judge for themselves - I
have modified all of mine.
Engine in Balance
Ten weights in the Mallet provide good traction, especially of the front
drive; the rear has a traction tyre, but has too little weight. The grip
of the second drive can be improved by adding more ballast to the cab. A
good part of that will be in the shape of metal HSB engineer and stoker
by Prehm (about 70g per figure). On the sides of the floor there are
narrow areas into which black painted tin weights can be glued (lengths
of about 80g, pictures 9 and 10). Total weight of the loco can thus be
increased from 3200g to 3500g, while the balance will be shifted towards
the rear. Front weight goes from 2050g to 1720, while the rear goes from
1150g to 1780g. Furthe increasing ballast in the cab makes little sense,
as the front will get too light.
.................
From the discussions and posts above in this thread, it does appear that the weight distribution issue applies to ALL versions of the Mallet, including the current production ones, but the gearbox modification issues only apply to very early production black 5901 models which have only TWO screws in the bottom plate of each gearbox.
I've got my Prehm crew all lined up ready to go into the cab of one of mine (I'll probably put them in the green 5902 for the moment); it will be interesting to see what effect just the figures have on the overall weight distribution and the running characteristics of the drive units, and whether or not any additional weights are needed to improve things further....
Jon.
Here is Peter's translation of the most relevant part of the GBP article - a couple of comments are his, where the direct translation didn't 100% make sense!
...................
Raised motor positioning
Back in our test in GBP 1/14 we mentioned the "limping" of the rear
drive train and proposed as solution an additional bolt on each side of
the frame. The effect of these bolts is that the rear drive axle, which
is moved by the motor's worm drive directly via a diagonally cut gear
and therefore also moves sideways, pushes the outer frame against the
link rods and especially the excenter. [Actually, this is nonsense. The
bolts obviously PREVENT this from happening.] During further tests with
another loco, especially when going slow with a cold engine, slight
hesitation became apparent, even on the front bogie, which has no outer
frame.
TL themselves have found the solution to the puzzle: Worm gear and gear
engage a little too tightly. Even a slightly raised position of the
Buehler motors of about 0.5mm in both engine blocks results in smooth
running of the drive trains. This small modification will soon be
integrated into production, so that smooth running will appear from the
start and not only when the engine has warmed up. Those, who already
have the Mallet in their model roundhouse can implement a fix with
little effort: in the centre of the opened gear block glue a 0.5mm thin
plate of non corroding metal (e.g. brass), but not plastic. This will
separate the gears just enough, while still letting them mesh
sufficiently - and that's it! A video (link in the box at the end of
this article or scan the QR code) shows the success of this
modification. Now the Mallet shows silky smooth running over the entire
speed range right from the start and not only at operating temperature.
Whether this mod is necessary every owner can judge for themselves - I
have modified all of mine.
Engine in Balance
Ten weights in the Mallet provide good traction, especially of the front
drive; the rear has a traction tyre, but has too little weight. The grip
of the second drive can be improved by adding more ballast to the cab. A
good part of that will be in the shape of metal HSB engineer and stoker
by Prehm (about 70g per figure). On the sides of the floor there are
narrow areas into which black painted tin weights can be glued (lengths
of about 80g, pictures 9 and 10). Total weight of the loco can thus be
increased from 3200g to 3500g, while the balance will be shifted towards
the rear. Front weight goes from 2050g to 1720, while the rear goes from
1150g to 1780g. Furthe increasing ballast in the cab makes little sense,
as the front will get too light.
.................
From the discussions and posts above in this thread, it does appear that the weight distribution issue applies to ALL versions of the Mallet, including the current production ones, but the gearbox modification issues only apply to very early production black 5901 models which have only TWO screws in the bottom plate of each gearbox.
I've got my Prehm crew all lined up ready to go into the cab of one of mine (I'll probably put them in the green 5902 for the moment); it will be interesting to see what effect just the figures have on the overall weight distribution and the running characteristics of the drive units, and whether or not any additional weights are needed to improve things further....
Jon.
Zerogee
Clencher's Bogleman
Well, today I've done two things with the green 5902; I've tested it on the rollers with the two heavy Prehm crew figures in the cab (just placed in for weight at the moment, I think they will both need some surgery as they are a little too tall with the raised cab floor platform...) and that showed a slight but noticeable improvement in the running - so then I decided to go a stage further and have a serious look at the quartering on the front power unit. One of my emails from Bernd at Modell-Land had mentioned that the power units were sometimes prone to slipping a fraction out of quarter - this MAY be an unexpected side-effect of the modification to raise the motor slightly, maybe it makes it that little bit easier for the cog to slip a tooth against the worm, but that's purely conjecture on my part.
Anyway, I tried my best to figure out whether the quartering was right or not - it's quite hard to accurately judge, because there is a certain amount of play in the gearing anyway, plus the rather complex set of rods and motion does obscure clear view of the wheels, especially the front wheel of each unit. Anyway, after careful inspection I THOUGHT I was pretty sure that the front power unit (the one that ran slowly and made all sorts of groaning and squealing noises!) was just a fraction out of quarter, so I figured it was worth trying an adjustment - i could always put it back again if it made the situation worse.
Inverting the loco very carefully on the workbench so that it was resting on the cab roof vent and the funnel, I carefully removed the four screws holding the bottom plate on the front gearbox - be especially careful of the outer two, they are in VERY tight and the screws are not of the highest quality, one of mine started to strip the head and required quite a lot of pressure on the screwdriver to get it to budge. The two "new" screws added to the middle of the plate during the gearbox redesign are much smaller, and though they needed a bit of effort they weren't anywhere near as tight. Once the screws are out you can carefully lift away the baseplate - I just tiled mine up at the front, because the circuit board for the Hall Sensor that controls the chuff rate was partially stuck to the plate at the back end - don't know if it is supposed to be, or if some excess glue had got onto it during manufacture. Anyway, this just gave me enough access to lift the front axle and turn it just a single tooth against the motor worm. The bottom plate was then screwed back into place and the loco put back on the rollers for another test (with the metal crew placed back into the cab) - I can safely say that the adjustment has helped quite a bit, the front motor block is now considerably quieter and more free running than it was!
Oh, and just one other thing - the manual that came with my 5902 had a clear (in German) warning note in it, which stated that the Zimo-chipped loco does NOT have its sound volume controlled via turning the steam exhaust (?) funnel behind the main dome, as the Massoth-chipped versions do - instead, it says that you must adjust the volume by changing the value of CV266. AT LEAST IN THE CASE OF MY LOCO, THIS IS WRONG! There IS a potentiometer control under the steam vent, and it DOES adjust the volume - not very finely, only a tiny turn is required between a whisper and VERY LOUD! So, if you have the same version as I do, ignore that warning notice in the instruction booklet; I only found this out because I though I'd b*ggered something up after opening the gearbox, because the sound had dropped to barely-audible - then I touched the vent funnel very finely and was almost deafened!
My feeling about these locos is that TL45 are making changes to them almost all the time as they make and sell batches, and fixing problems "on the fly" - so exactly what you get seems to be pot luck as to when your supplier got their stock and which batch it comes from...... part of me thinks this shows that the manufacturer is at least responding to problems with practical fixes, but on the other hand maybe these should have been tested and rectified before any models were released to the market...? :-\
TL45 are obviously still on a steep learning curve when it comes to loco production - after all, they don't have 40-plus years of experience behind them - and we can only hope that all this will go to ensuring that their next one, the Pfiffi 0-6-0, will be that much better......
Jon.
Anyway, I tried my best to figure out whether the quartering was right or not - it's quite hard to accurately judge, because there is a certain amount of play in the gearing anyway, plus the rather complex set of rods and motion does obscure clear view of the wheels, especially the front wheel of each unit. Anyway, after careful inspection I THOUGHT I was pretty sure that the front power unit (the one that ran slowly and made all sorts of groaning and squealing noises!) was just a fraction out of quarter, so I figured it was worth trying an adjustment - i could always put it back again if it made the situation worse.
Inverting the loco very carefully on the workbench so that it was resting on the cab roof vent and the funnel, I carefully removed the four screws holding the bottom plate on the front gearbox - be especially careful of the outer two, they are in VERY tight and the screws are not of the highest quality, one of mine started to strip the head and required quite a lot of pressure on the screwdriver to get it to budge. The two "new" screws added to the middle of the plate during the gearbox redesign are much smaller, and though they needed a bit of effort they weren't anywhere near as tight. Once the screws are out you can carefully lift away the baseplate - I just tiled mine up at the front, because the circuit board for the Hall Sensor that controls the chuff rate was partially stuck to the plate at the back end - don't know if it is supposed to be, or if some excess glue had got onto it during manufacture. Anyway, this just gave me enough access to lift the front axle and turn it just a single tooth against the motor worm. The bottom plate was then screwed back into place and the loco put back on the rollers for another test (with the metal crew placed back into the cab) - I can safely say that the adjustment has helped quite a bit, the front motor block is now considerably quieter and more free running than it was!
Oh, and just one other thing - the manual that came with my 5902 had a clear (in German) warning note in it, which stated that the Zimo-chipped loco does NOT have its sound volume controlled via turning the steam exhaust (?) funnel behind the main dome, as the Massoth-chipped versions do - instead, it says that you must adjust the volume by changing the value of CV266. AT LEAST IN THE CASE OF MY LOCO, THIS IS WRONG! There IS a potentiometer control under the steam vent, and it DOES adjust the volume - not very finely, only a tiny turn is required between a whisper and VERY LOUD! So, if you have the same version as I do, ignore that warning notice in the instruction booklet; I only found this out because I though I'd b*ggered something up after opening the gearbox, because the sound had dropped to barely-audible - then I touched the vent funnel very finely and was almost deafened!
My feeling about these locos is that TL45 are making changes to them almost all the time as they make and sell batches, and fixing problems "on the fly" - so exactly what you get seems to be pot luck as to when your supplier got their stock and which batch it comes from...... part of me thinks this shows that the manufacturer is at least responding to problems with practical fixes, but on the other hand maybe these should have been tested and rectified before any models were released to the market...? :-\
TL45 are obviously still on a steep learning curve when it comes to loco production - after all, they don't have 40-plus years of experience behind them - and we can only hope that all this will go to ensuring that their next one, the Pfiffi 0-6-0, will be that much better......
Jon.
stockers
Trains, aircraft, models, walking, beer, travel
Interesting development Jon.Glad you seem to have sorted the front unit.
I too fancy Pfiffi and agree with you that we all hope TL are learning on the go and not just bodging fixes. As for finance!!!!
I have to say, to date I am very happy with my Mallet. It looks good, it's well detailed and fills a hole in the HSB - limits Marklins development maybe?
A damn good thread JonD and all - useful and informative.
I too fancy Pfiffi and agree with you that we all hope TL are learning on the go and not just bodging fixes. As for finance!!!!
I have to say, to date I am very happy with my Mallet. It looks good, it's well detailed and fills a hole in the HSB - limits Marklins development maybe?
A damn good thread JonD and all - useful and informative.
Zerogee said:Mark,
How do you activate "special modes" on the Navvy? I know I could probably find it somewhere in the Massoth handbook, but I find those extremely hard to take in - I'm sure you can explain it much more simply!
Thanks,
Jon.
Sorry Jon, missed this post.....
On the Navigator....
Menu (M3)
Navigator Config (M1, M1, M1)
OK (M2)
more... (M1, M1, M1, M1, M1)
OK (M2)
Special Mode (M2 ok)
Move the arrow using M1 to select the mode sets you wish, then use the number button to select the mode you wish to enable.
The mode is enabled when the number is inverted with the background (i.e surrounded in a box).
Zerogee
Clencher's Bogleman
I've just tested the smoke generator in my 5902 for the first time, and it's pretty good - excellent synchronisation of the "puffs" with the "chuffs" - but the smoke plume still doesn't seem as good as in this vid here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtSOHFKHWtI
In particular, look at about 2:11 where the loco is coming towards the camera - that's what I CALL a smoke plume....
Do different commercial makes of smoke fluid give significantly different results, or are they all broadly similar? I know some folks have their personal "special brews" (maybe the one in the vid is using something home-brewed?), but as the Mallet doesn't come with any fluid included (not even the little tiny bottle that LGB supply with locos) I'm using some of the blue Massoth stuff. Any other recommendations?
Jon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtSOHFKHWtI
In particular, look at about 2:11 where the loco is coming towards the camera - that's what I CALL a smoke plume....
Do different commercial makes of smoke fluid give significantly different results, or are they all broadly similar? I know some folks have their personal "special brews" (maybe the one in the vid is using something home-brewed?), but as the Mallet doesn't come with any fluid included (not even the little tiny bottle that LGB supply with locos) I'm using some of the blue Massoth stuff. Any other recommendations?
Jon.
I wonder if this has a different Smoke Generator, my German not up to what was said on the vid. But it does appear that this is a non chipped Black one, Zimmo Fitted and a different Generator fitted?Zerogee said:
JonD
This post should pretty much complete the works.
Job 3 Rehash Piping Left and Right Hand Side Completed
The final part here was the Pipe from the Front of the Tank that overhangs the Bogie. This was a Thicker Piece of Copper, flattened at one end to assist Supergluing to the Tank. The end had a small length of 2.6mm Heat shrink added to allow Movement should it get caught on the bogie. The next pic shows this and a similar Pipe on the Right Hand Side.
The right hand side was a similar job of bending and placing Pipes. Some have been `Planted` into existing holes, a couple of additional holes have been added to the Cab to assist with Pipework Placement. The existing High Pipework that so dominates the original Model from the Cab has been reduced to just one. I also removed the Tank (just in front of the Cab) as there is a Smaller One locate on the Cab, another Job! The remaining holes have been plated over with Black Plasticard as were some on the other side, some Cosmetic Rivets were made with a Scriber.
Job 11 Box with Pipes on Left Side of Cab Completed.
This was the inevitable piece of Copper Wire soldered into a Small Box made from 2mm Square Brass. Whilst Soldering this in, sufficient Solder is added to ensure that the ends are Blocked. Thus when cleaned up it looks like a Small Box.
Job 16 Driving Crew Completed
These were modified so that the Fireman has a Shovel. The Driver has a New Head courtesy of some leftovers from a Piko Kit. A Shovel was placed in the Fireman`s Hand. Both had holes drilled into their feet, a Pin was pushed into these so that they could be planted into a Small Hole in the Cab Floor. A dab of Superglue and they are on 24/7/365 Day Shifts. The Driver has his hand on a Regulator, superglued onto the Firebox. Made from Flattened Copper Wire.
Job 18 New Job Rear Lighting Pipes Completed
These were made up with Copper Wire and more Boxes made from Square Copper Tube as described in Job 11. A Small Nail was soldered to the Back of the Squares so that they can be Glued into holes in the Cab. Placing these takes a bit of patience to get right. The Pic shows the Placing. This pic shows this and the Pipes from Job 8.
Job 19 New Job Tool Box on Right Hand Side Completed
The Tool Box removed from the Left Hand Side is placed on the Right Hand Side, a New Hole was drilled so that it can be placed with the Original Screw. A couple of small slithers of Plasticard represent the Hinges and Padlock Strap.
Job 20 was the new Taps Completed
Job 21 New Tank for Cab Rood Completed.
This was made up with some Brass Tube that I had to hand, somewhat smaller in diameter that the Original Tank, it needed to be which is why the original was not used. I Soldered some Brass onto one end, drilled the end for a Pipe Run. Most important this as it also is needed to vent Air when soldering Brass on for the other end. Cleaned up the end pieces by chopping the excess brass off and dressing in the lathe. This could be done using an Electric Drill held in a Vise. More Brass made a Frame which was then Fused into the Cab by Gentle Heat applied with the Soldering Iron to make a couple of Groves so that it could be Sited on the Roof. The pipe runs go through a Couple of Holes in the Roof and when bent over underneath secure the Tank in Place.
Job 6 Weathering most done for now.
I have done most of the Weathering now, but feel that a bit more perhaps Black Sprayed is needed below to loose the Bright Red of the Frame and Wheels.
Job 5 Additional Lettering on Tank.
This remains unresolved till I can work out exactly what it is. I have not yet found a Picture.
Here finally are some Pictures of the Loco out on the Line with the Black one for comparison. All that remains is for me to do a Short Vid of her running and some pics with the Painting Completed.
So there we are, £1200 quids worth of Loco totally taken out of its warranty. But I like it.
JonD
Job 3 Rehash Piping Left and Right Hand Side Completed
The final part here was the Pipe from the Front of the Tank that overhangs the Bogie. This was a Thicker Piece of Copper, flattened at one end to assist Supergluing to the Tank. The end had a small length of 2.6mm Heat shrink added to allow Movement should it get caught on the bogie. The next pic shows this and a similar Pipe on the Right Hand Side.
The right hand side was a similar job of bending and placing Pipes. Some have been `Planted` into existing holes, a couple of additional holes have been added to the Cab to assist with Pipework Placement. The existing High Pipework that so dominates the original Model from the Cab has been reduced to just one. I also removed the Tank (just in front of the Cab) as there is a Smaller One locate on the Cab, another Job! The remaining holes have been plated over with Black Plasticard as were some on the other side, some Cosmetic Rivets were made with a Scriber.
Job 11 Box with Pipes on Left Side of Cab Completed.
This was the inevitable piece of Copper Wire soldered into a Small Box made from 2mm Square Brass. Whilst Soldering this in, sufficient Solder is added to ensure that the ends are Blocked. Thus when cleaned up it looks like a Small Box.
Job 16 Driving Crew Completed
These were modified so that the Fireman has a Shovel. The Driver has a New Head courtesy of some leftovers from a Piko Kit. A Shovel was placed in the Fireman`s Hand. Both had holes drilled into their feet, a Pin was pushed into these so that they could be planted into a Small Hole in the Cab Floor. A dab of Superglue and they are on 24/7/365 Day Shifts. The Driver has his hand on a Regulator, superglued onto the Firebox. Made from Flattened Copper Wire.
Job 18 New Job Rear Lighting Pipes Completed
These were made up with Copper Wire and more Boxes made from Square Copper Tube as described in Job 11. A Small Nail was soldered to the Back of the Squares so that they can be Glued into holes in the Cab. Placing these takes a bit of patience to get right. The Pic shows the Placing. This pic shows this and the Pipes from Job 8.
Job 19 New Job Tool Box on Right Hand Side Completed
The Tool Box removed from the Left Hand Side is placed on the Right Hand Side, a New Hole was drilled so that it can be placed with the Original Screw. A couple of small slithers of Plasticard represent the Hinges and Padlock Strap.
Job 20 was the new Taps Completed
Job 21 New Tank for Cab Rood Completed.
This was made up with some Brass Tube that I had to hand, somewhat smaller in diameter that the Original Tank, it needed to be which is why the original was not used. I Soldered some Brass onto one end, drilled the end for a Pipe Run. Most important this as it also is needed to vent Air when soldering Brass on for the other end. Cleaned up the end pieces by chopping the excess brass off and dressing in the lathe. This could be done using an Electric Drill held in a Vise. More Brass made a Frame which was then Fused into the Cab by Gentle Heat applied with the Soldering Iron to make a couple of Groves so that it could be Sited on the Roof. The pipe runs go through a Couple of Holes in the Roof and when bent over underneath secure the Tank in Place.
Job 6 Weathering most done for now.
I have done most of the Weathering now, but feel that a bit more perhaps Black Sprayed is needed below to loose the Bright Red of the Frame and Wheels.
Job 5 Additional Lettering on Tank.
This remains unresolved till I can work out exactly what it is. I have not yet found a Picture.
Here finally are some Pictures of the Loco out on the Line with the Black one for comparison. All that remains is for me to do a Short Vid of her running and some pics with the Painting Completed.
So there we are, £1200 quids worth of Loco totally taken out of its warranty. But I like it.
JonD
PhilP said:
Hm sorry I do not know the answer to that. Bet it is in the Book though, sadly my German is not up to it. Any idea how one might be able to tell from older pics, there are a few in my books?
Many thanks for the kind comments. The Black one will be next, but probably not quite so much work looking at the pics.
JinD