Trainline and Piko Curved Points

[Ralphmp]

I recently added some Trainline and Piko curved points to my layout and I thought people may be interested in some observations about the products.

Trainline

I was using these curved points to help smooth out the transition from straight track to R3 curves at one end of my layout. Whilst my original arrangement worked fine, and looked ok when running short wheel-base wagons/coaches, it did produce an unrealistic swerve when running typical RhB passenger coaches at any speed other than a complete crawl.

Original Layout



The TL curved points approximate to LGB R5 for the outer curve and LGB R3 for the inner curve. They come with an additional piece of track to aid installation and, as they were a present, I opted for the set that included the Trainline electric point motor / decoder (cheeky, I know!). The points are well made and come with mounting holes for the point motor pre-drilled in the relevant sleepers (ties for you guys across the pond). TL use screws to secure the moving point rails to the plastic bar that connects to whatever point switch device you fancy and I have had an issue with a previous set of TL R2 points where one of the screws worked loose, one of the point blades separated from the plastic bar and a derailment ensued. So worth checking these screws are attached securely before fitting.

To fit the points I removed most of the fishplates as I use rail clamps to simplify removal of points for maintenance. Unlike LGB points where it's possible to fit clamps to all rails once the fishplates have been removed, the Trainline points are quite short on the inner curve and fitting a clamp isn't feasible so I left the fishplate attached on this rail. You can see this in the next photo



This is where the short extension piece came in - see next photo



As you can see from the photos, in the end I opted to reuse the LGB point motor from the replaced R3 points (so I now have a spare brand new TL motor/decoder).

When fitting TL points I've noticed that they need to be as level as possible - even a minor variation can cause the points to stick in operation. I guess this is less of an issue if you lay your tracks on ballast of some sort but in my case where they are attached to supporting boards I found I had to fit a couple of shims to ensure smooth and easy switching.

In use the points have achieved the effect I wanted and so far there have been no mechanical issues. I've also not observed the infamous Trainline "bump" which seems to affect non-TL stock running overTL's R2 points - an added bonus!

So, overall I've been pleased with these TL curved points, especially as I managed to source a set before TL upped their prices. I accept they are a bit of a luxury item and if I hadn't had some birthday/Christmas money to spend I'd probably continued with my original arrangement.

Piko

These were installed as part of smoothing out some junctions between my inner and outer loops. I had some jolting issues over the existing points which I couldn't resolve and these curved points looked like a promising solution.

Piko's curved points are sharper radii than TL's - more akin to R3 for the outer curve and R2 for the inner.

Like the TL points the Piko ones come with an extension track to aid fitting and they also seem robustly made. This is my first experience of Piko trackwork and, apart from slightly different looking sleepers (ties) they slotted in amongst my LGB track with no issues. The points come with mounting holes for motors already drilled and I found an LGB motor slotted in fine. One aspect I'm not keen on is the metal strip that is inlaid into the frog but as the points are kind of out of the way I'm learning to live with this.

The photo below shows the points fitted - the metal strip is just about visible and you can see I've used the extension track on the inner curve to simplify fitting. The difference in sleepers from the surrounding LGB track is also apparent if you look carefully.



In use the points have so far been trouble-free - no issues with any of my locos or rolling stock running though the points in either direction. As this part of the layout is where I tend to run smaller single-motor locos, not all of which have skates, I was concerned that there might be some stalling issues but nope, they all run through fine.

Overall, I'm pleased with these Piko curved points so far and, compared to the TL ones, I thought they were very reasonably priced.


Final picture shows both sets of points installed and operational.






I hope this post proves helpful and covers the right sort of info - if not, please let me know and I'll endeavour to update it.

Cheers

 

[JimmyB]

Phil, nice honest objective report.

 

[Zerogee]

Good write-up, Phil!
I have a couple of the large radius Piko curved points to be used soon, one new and one second-hand, so your experiences are interesting and relevant.

I've got a couple of TL45 points (straight ones, not curved) with their own manual switch boxes - basically the same casing as the electric/DCC ones but without the "guts" - and though they are nice and positive in their switching action, you have to be aware that they do not allow the point blades to be "pushed through" from the other end when they are not set correctly. This means that they won't be suitable for every application, as some layouts rely on the ability of trains to push through some sets of spring-loaded points.
A minor thing, but one that folks may not be aware of if they haven't used a TL45 switch box before.

Jon.

 

[Gizzy]

Good write up Phil!

Like Jon, I also have 3 TL R2 points, with the TL motors. I do like the slow action of these motors when they operate; much more prototypical than the LGB 'clunk', although again the LGB motors are fairly bomb proof in operation....

 

[Ralphmp]

Good point Jon - forgot to mention that.

I did use to rely on "pushing through" a set of points (on a reversing loop) which I was intending to replace with TL ones when I remembered reading another writeup from way back on the TL point motors being "non-push-through-able", so I left my LGB points in situ. However, I then found a really nifty write-up on the Massoth Wiki about using a Track Contact and a switch decoder to automatically set the road correctly whichever direction the locomotive approached from, so no more pushing required and doing the TL point replacement with a TL motor may still be on the cards.

Gizzy - agree with you on the action and, to be honest, if I hadn't had the LGB point motor already in place and connected to a switch decoder, I'd have used the TL decoder motor; getting lazy in my dotage I'm afraid.

 

[Nodrog1826]

Curved points do have a certain appeal...

 

[Ralphmp]

The attached short video shows the same train running first over the reprofiled R5 curve plus TL curved points and then over a set of R3 points at the same speed. Hopefully you can see how the curved points have eliminated the "swerve" i mentioned at the beginning of the post.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

The biggest difference in design appears to be the frog. The TL appears to have a center wedge of metal, and if that is true, it must have some mechanism to switch polarity of that part. Here in the US we have seen the same/similar product imported by a dealer, and it had a large, high current reed switch and a moving magnet attached to the throwbar. I wonder if your switch is similar.

On the Piko, I think the entire frog is plastic, and the metal strips are in the flangeway, to provide power. The issue with this design is that your flange depth must be sufficient to contact this strips for best conductivity. Shallower flanges will not contact/conduct, and deeper ones will "bump up" and lift the tread off the rail head - a "flange bearing frog"...

Greg

 

[Zerogee]

The biggest difference in design appears to be the frog. The TL appears to have a center wedge of metal, and if that is true, it must have some mechanism to switch polarity of that part. Here in the US we have seen the same/similar product imported by a dealer, and it had a large, high current reed switch and a moving magnet attached to the throwbar. I wonder if your switch is similar.
..........
Greg

You are correct that there is a metal insert in the TL45 frog, Greg - there is a solder tag underneath the frog so that you can connect it up IF you want to, or still treat it as a "dead frog" point. If you've seen "Train-Li" points over there, they are indeed TL45 imports, Train-Li being the US end of TL45's German operation (not sure just how connected they are business-wise, Train-Li may just be an importer and distributor, but that isn't really important - the products are the same items).

Jon.

 

[Ralphmp]

Greg - sorry but I didn’t think to take any photos of the undersides before I installed the points. I confess I don’t really understand the importance of the “live” or “dead” frog options. I just install the points and run trains over them without issues (other than dirty track when the layout has sat idle for several weeks) Is it because I just use DCC perhaps?
I do have another set of non-curved TL points in storage so I’ll dig them out post some photos of the underside.

 

[dunnyrail]

I have been using TL Points for a while and enjoyed this write up on them, plus the comparison with Piko Curved ones. For my Money the TL ones do score having the Live Frogs. My TL Curved RH Point had a Reed Switch (fitted as standard at that time by TL?) this changed Polarity via a Magnet in the Tie Bar, very neat but the Reed got trashed in a short out situation. Easy to do with old gits like me running trains! So has been replaced with a Micro Switch to change Frog Polarity.

As for the bumping issue, it is prevalent on all of the TL Points that I have (5 now). With TL, LGB, USA Trains, Bachmann and some other finer flanges. I have resolved this in a small way by slithers of Plasticard (20 thou) to Raise up Flanges which works quite well for as long as they last. Problem is whatever Glue I use they tend to dissapear over time. Plus they are not a lot of good on the finer flanges on some of my Live Steam and Battery Locomotives.

All of my TL Points are inside my Main Train Shed, but I am planing a new outdoor Station that will probably some get TL Curved Points and perhaps R3 or R2's. Watch this space as they say!

 

[dunnyrail]

I have been using TL Points for a while and enjoyed this write up on them, plus the comparison with Piko Curved ones. For my Money the TL ones do score having the Live Frogs. My TL Curved RH Point had a Reed Switch (fitted as standard at that time by TL?) this changed Polarity via a Magnet in the Tie Bar, very neat but the Reed got trashed in a short out situation. Easy to do with old gits like me running trains! So has been replaced with a Micro Switch to change Frog Polarity.

As for the bumping issue, it is prevalent on all of the TL Points that I have (5 now). With TL, LGB, USA Trains, Bachmann and some other finer flanges. I have resolved this in a small way by slithers of Plasticard (20 thou) to Raise up Flanges which works quite well for as long as they last. Problem is whatever Glue I use they tend to dissapear over time. Plus they are not a lot of good on the finer flanges on some of my Live Steam and Battery Locomotives.

All of my TL Points are inside my Main Train Shed, but I am planing a new outdoor Station that will probably some get TL Curved Points and perhaps R3 or R2's. Watch this space as they say!

 

[ebay mike]

It would appear on balance the Train Line points are the better product, but there is quite a difference in price.

 

[Ralphmp]

I have been using TL Points for a while and enjoyed this write up on them, plus the comparison with Piko Curved ones. For my Money the TL ones do score having the Live Frogs. My TL Curved RH Point had a Reed Switch (fitted as standard at that time by TL?) this changed Polarity via a Magnet in the Tie Bar, very neat but the Reed got trashed in a short out situation. Easy to do with old gits like me running trains! So has been replaced with a Micro Switch to change Frog Polarity.

As for the bumping issue, it is prevalent on all of the TL Points that I have (5 now). With TL, LGB, USA Trains, Bachmann and some other finer flanges. I have resolved this in a small way by slithers of Plasticard (20 thou) to Raise up Flanges which works quite well for as long as they last. Problem is whatever Glue I use they tend to dissapear over time. Plus they are not a lot of good on the finer flanges on some of my Live Steam and Battery Locomotives.

All of my TL Points are inside my Main Train Shed, but I am planing a new outdoor Station that will probably some get TL Curved Points and perhaps R3 or R2's. Watch this space as they say!

Jon - I’ve used your excellent plasticard fix on a set of TL R2 points where the bump is particularly irritating. I used Hafix adhesive to attach the sliver and so far it’s holding ok. TBH, as I mentioned above, I haven’t noticed the “bump” on the curved points at all so far.

 

[dunnyrail]

Jon - I’ve used your excellent plasticard fix on a set of TL R2 points where the bump is particularly irritating. I used Hafix adhesive to attach the sliver and so far it’s holding ok. TBH, as I mentioned above, I haven’t noticed the “bump” on the curved points at all so far.

Oh great Phil, is Hafix a liquid type of Plasticard Adhesive cos that is the one thing that I have not tried!

 

[Ralphmp]

Oh great Phil, is Hafix a liquid type of Plasticard Adhesive cos that is the one thing that I have not tried!

I guess you’d call it a kind of superglue, Jon.

I bought a couple of bottles at last year’s Peterborough show based (a) on the seller’s claims that it would stick almost anything to anything and (b) several venerable gentleman were buying it in bulk! (Seemed reassuring somehow.)

The accompanying leaflet tells me to be very careful not to stick my bodily parts together and people at the show told me to keep it in the fridge until it was needed as this helps its sticking power. I’ll have a root around tomorrow and see if I can find this leaflet as I think it has the list of ingredients.

 

[dunnyrail]

I guess you’d call it a kind of superglue, Jon.

I bought a couple of bottles at last year’s Peterborough show based (a) on the seller’s claims that it would stick almost anything to anything and (b) several venerable gentleman were buying it in bulk! (Seemed reassuring somehow.)

The accompanying leaflet tells me to be very careful not to stick my bodily parts together and people at the show told me to keep it in the fridge until it was needed as this helps its sticking power. I’ll have a root around tomorrow and see if I can find this leaflet as I think it has the list of ingredients.

Aha I have a similar sort of one that I also keep in the fridge called PowerBond 806. Sourced mine from a similar guy at Ally Palace a few years back. Good stuff as well, must try it.

In fact all SuperGlues benefit from being kept in the Fridge so long as SWMBO does not find out. But then when they eject it and you cant stick something for them you can say "but I told you I needed to keep it in the fridge!". I if course have no such issus.

 

[Rhinochugger]

The attached short video shows the same train running first over the reprofiled R5 curve plus TL curved points and then over a set of R3 points at the same speed. Hopefully you can see how the curved points have eliminated the "swerve" i mentioned at the beginning of the post.

We do tend to get a bit hung up on track geometry, when we should be looking at the way 1:1 track is laid. By and large we can't help having tight radii, but smoothing things out always helps

 

[Greg Elmassian]

The never-ending issue of how to make a "good" frog is always going to be affected by the typically wide flangeways both at the wing rails of the frog and the guard rails on the stock rails.

These overly-wide flangeways mean that the proper dynamics of a frog and the rails around it, i.e. the ability to support the tread at all times going through the frog, is pretty well impossible.

So, if you are to keep these flangeways so wide (because of wide tolerances in gauge, back to back, flange thickness, etc) then the "natural" thing is to make a "flange-bearing" frog, i.e. the wheel is supported by the flange not the rails through the frog. Now this fails unless all your flanges are the same depth.

It's all interlocked. I have gauged my wheels properly, shimmed the overly wide flangeways and everything works right, but you have to do it all, and it's NEVER "correct" out of the box.

Once it's done though, the trains run great, and you can run different wheelsets with varying flange depths (read: you can run rolling stock from any manufacturer) .

Took a while to learn this, and a couple of my mentors helped a lot, and then looking at it and doing it right. Way too much effort for most people, but the results are really reliable running with prototype length trains.

Greg

 

[PhilP]

So would that mean I could run 'G scale' (read LGB etc.) AND gauge 1 stock, on LGB / Aristo track if I do this??