Track Cleaning dcc problems

adamski

Registered
14 Jul 2016
57
8
45
kent
HI everyone,

I have an old lgb track cleaning loco which is fitted with a LGB 555021 decoder this loco has worked fine for many years but now all of a sudden has started having problems as listed below, I run Massoth and as I said I have not altered anything and it is just this loco.

1 If I increase forward speed past speed step 6 loco runs then stops then starts up runs then stops and so on. If 1 run it under speed step 6 no problems with or without cleaning wheels running. If I run it in reverse no problem at all. It is not a power pick up problem as I have a trailing unit which has 4 lgb pick up wheels providing power to the loco as well as found that helped getting this loco over points and crossovers.

2 Cleaning wheel motor is all free and lubricated and new discs fitted to avoid any problems but motor runs fine for 5 mins at full revs then slowly gets slower. I have removed it and run it straight of a power supply and no problems so it has to be on the decoder or the internal pcb.

3 There is a set of micro switches on the pcb and a large 3 way switch does anyone know what these do and what are the correct positions for these when used for dcc operation

Any thoughts or what this maybe or how to solve it would be greatly apricated

Many Thanks

Adam
 

mike

Master at annoying..
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24 Oct 2009
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I would guess...and it is a guess.. the motor is pulling more amps as you increase speed.. shutting down the chip....then it resets ,,setting off again..if its a old .or well used loco..look at the amp age being drawn on your navigate...it should be 1 amp ...or less..
 

adamski

Registered
14 Jul 2016
57
8
45
kent
I would guess...and it is a guess.. the motor is pulling more amps as you increase speed.. shutting down the chip....then it resets ,,setting off again..if its a old .or well used loco..look at the amp age being drawn on your navigate...it should be 1 amp ...or less..
Hi Mike

Thanks for your quick answer

Sadly the drive motor does draw less than than 1 amp, it had a new one fitted and gears about 9 months ago by Chalk garden Railways as the gear box failed and I struggled to get the parts, as I said it worked fine then about a week ago started stopping and starting just find it odd in reverse its fine only does it going forward. My thoughts are something is failing on the pcb either on the decoder or the main pcb but what is the question. I have thought of removing it all fitting a massoth decoder using output 1 to switch a relay to drive the cleaning wheels as it will only be used on my dcc layout
 

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
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Did you try the recently posted option of looking for swarfs of plastic in the drive train?
 

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
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Have you checked for plastic 'string' round the cleaning wheel shafts?
This can build up, and cause the cleaning motor to draw more current.

I would give the wheel-backs, and skates a thorough cleaning.
With the loco upside down, cradled on your lap, check continuity between wheels and skates down each side of the loco.

I agree with the decoder-swap and relay

PhilP
 

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
19,105
3,866
72
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
Have you checked for plastic 'string' round the cleaning wheel shafts?
This can build up, and cause the cleaning motor to draw more current.

I would give the wheel-backs, and skates a thorough cleaning.
With the loco upside down, cradled on your lap, check continuity between wheels and skates down each side of the loco.

I agree with the decoder-swap and relay

PhilP
That is wot I said, but Phil said it better!
 

adamski

Registered
14 Jul 2016
57
8
45
kent
Did you try the recently posted option of looking for swarfs of plastic in the drive train?
All clean and clear and new wheels fitted on the safe side
 

adamski

Registered
14 Jul 2016
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8
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kent
That is wot I said, but Phil said it better!
Power to the decoder is fine, it only does this going forward after speed step 6 so I feel something electronic is getting to hot as maybe old and failing but not sure so was wondering if anyone else had these same problems
 

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
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Oh!
Forgot to mention..
If you go the decoder and relay route :
You will need a bridge rectifier, on the feed to the cleaning motor

You may wish to consider a speed controller, for the cleaning motor, as well?

PhilP
 

adamski

Registered
14 Jul 2016
57
8
45
kent
Have you checked for plastic 'string' round the cleaning wheel shafts?
This can build up, and cause the cleaning motor to draw more current.

I would give the wheel-backs, and skates a thorough cleaning.
With the loco upside down, cradled on your lap, check continuity between wheels and skates down each side of the loco.

I agree with the decoder-swap and relay

PhilP
With fitting a decoder and and relay, I would need to install a bridge rectifier for the cleaning wheels would a KBU8B do the job? and do i need anything else apart from wires straight from pick up to the bridge I was wondering if there was a way to be able to make the cleaning wheels go in both directions using the the relay but not sure how yet as ideally want function 1 say to turn it on then say function 2 to alter the direction of the cleaning wheels any thoughts? or function 1 press once for on press again for changing direction and again for off
 

adamski

Registered
14 Jul 2016
57
8
45
kent
Oh!
Forgot to mention..
If you go the decoder and relay route :
You will need a bridge rectifier, on the feed to the cleaning motor

You may wish to consider a speed controller, for the cleaning motor, as well?

PhilP
Just seen your post, what about installing 2 decoders 1 for motor and 1 for cleaning motor that way I can swap directions of cleaning wheels and alter their cleaning speed no bridge required then or relays etc just set them at different address or is there a better way
 

wandgrudd

Registered
24 Oct 2009
393
51
....
All clean and clear and new wheels fitted on the safe side
I have the same (similar) issue but only intermittently (can go for numerous sessions without doing it then will suddenly start) I run mine around speed step 3-4 for a nice slow deep clean and often it does the stop start motion, I assumed as others that it was overheating as it does draw around 1.5-1.8 amps overall but I replaced both motors and the axel on the cleaning wheel but it made no difference (motors tested fine out the train around .4 amps at full tilt each), I now suspect a loose component on the circuit board as the wiring is fine and has all been tested, I have found that if you pick the loco up and give it a good sort of shake it corrects its self so am going to attempt to reflow the circuit board and see if that helps otherwise it’s a new circuit board, I think my self-lucky, must have had it 12 years and its used every session without fail so it easily the most used loco.
 
Last edited:

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
27,713
2,864
Tamworth, Staffs.
With fitting a decoder and and relay, I would need to install a bridge rectifier for the cleaning wheels would a KBU8B do the job? and do i need anything else apart from wires straight from pick up to the bridge I was wondering if there was a way to be able to make the cleaning wheels go in both directions using the the relay but not sure how yet as ideally want function 1 say to turn it on then say function 2 to alter the direction of the cleaning wheels any thoughts? or function 1 press once for on press again for changing direction and again for off
The bridge you quoted will be more than adequate..
Anything 3A or greater, at 50V or more will do the job..

The simplest way to switch the cleaning motor, would be two relays..
A SPST to turn off / on, and a DPDT for direction.

PhilP
 

adamski

Registered
14 Jul 2016
57
8
45
kent
I have the same (similar) issue but only intermittently (can go for numerous seasons with out doing it then will suddenly start) I run mine around speed step 3-4 for a nice slow deep clean and often it does the stop start motion, I assumed as others that it was overheating as it does draw around 1.5-1.8 amps overall but I replaced both motors and the axel on the cleaning wheel but it made no difference (motors tested fine out the train around .4 amps at full tilt each), I now suspect a loose component on the circuit board as the wiring is fine and has all been tested, I have found that if you pick the loco up and give it a good sort of shake it corrects its self so am going to attempt to reflow the circuit board and see if that helps otherwise it’s a new circuit board, I think my self-lucky must have had it 12 years and its used every session with out fail so it easily the most used loco.
Thank you for your reply, sorry to hear you have the same problem but glad I am not alone wonder if all the vibration's are causing damage my loco is 12 years old as well and used every running session. So need it back in action asap
 

adamski

Registered
14 Jul 2016
57
8
45
kent
The bridge you quoted will be more than adequate..
Anything 3A or greater, at 50V or more will do the job..

The simplest way to switch the cleaning motor, would be two relays..
A SPST to turn off / on, and a DPDT for direction.

PhilP
Thank you did you see my idea of 2 decoders so I can speed control the cleaning wheels and alter direction of them thinking of using 2 emotion 8154001 as they have them at kent garden railways and I can click and collect as he is only 10 mins from my work.
 

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
27,713
2,864
Tamworth, Staffs.
Personally, I think two decoders is overkill.. - But you pays your money..

The cleaning motor has a rough old life, and can be electrically quite noisy..
This is one of the reasons the boards blow.
I would use a manual speed controller, personally.

PhilP
 

adamski

Registered
14 Jul 2016
57
8
45
kent
Personally, I think two decoders is overkill.. - But you pays your money..

The cleaning motor has a rough old life, and can be electrically quite noisy..
This is one of the reasons the boards blow.
I would use a manual speed controller, personally.

PhilP
OK do you feel that the cleaning wheels could damage a decoder easily then? the only reason I thought of that is otherwise I need a decoder that then switches a relay that is feed by a bridge rectifier which then goes to a speed controller and directional switch so a lot of different parts but will take you advice as I hate blowing up decoders found this on amazon or if you have a better idea

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Reversible...1611916707&sprefix=24v+speed+,aps,149&sr=8-25

adam
 

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
27,713
2,864
Tamworth, Staffs.
That unit would be fine..
Track power into bridge. Output from bridge into the controller.
Either mount the switch somewhere on the loco, or wire a DPDT relay in its place.
A SPST relay in one leg of either the track input to the bridge, or between the bridge and speed controller, would give you control via DCC.

PhilP
 

adamski

Registered
14 Jul 2016
57
8
45
kent
For the cost of the loco, I would use 2 decoders, motor only decoders are cheap.

If you run a relay to turn the motor on and off, be sure to add a BEMF snubbing diode across the coil.

Greg
Hi Greg

Thanks for your reply, any suggestions on who makes just a motor decoder please as I have only ever used massoth and lgb decoders in my locos. I know of plenty of other makes for my sons oo gauge but not seen just a motor decoder for the 22v the massoth controller sticks out

Many thanks

Adam