three years into Marklin take-over and excellent LGB program 2011!
- Thread starter metzbahner
- Start date
Rhinochugger
Retired Oik
Yes, yes, you're probably right.
But I've swung the other way now, and as I try to build up the Fn3 stock............
I've swung right out of the window
But I've swung the other way now, and as I try to build up the Fn3 stock............
I've swung right out of the window
stockers
Trains, aircraft, models, walking, beer, travel
Exactly - we need a wide range of suppliers for a wide option of prototypes as well as qualities. Bit like car manufacturers really - you can have low end or top end Fords and Mercs - its just that the Merc will always be a bit more than the Ford. Doesn't stop them all being useful cars though.PaulRhB said:
PaulRhB
This Way Up
My comments have been prompted by the original post that it has never been better when as many threads show on here they aren't back to their old position let alone far ahead of the rest of the field. Marklin has resurrected it but with the substantial price increases of all materials and models they need to address the fact that they have now moved out if reach of many initially starting and look at how some others have not only ridden the storm of the economic crisis but continued to have healthy sales.
Good points from Gareth & Alan but I still think a stripped down Stainz with cheaper motor and less detail parts makes more sense than a separate loco in the toy range later with all the extra parts to produce and store.
This is the avenue Hornby has taken successfully with something like their Railroad Range Blue Rapier set which uses identical mouldings to the premium Javelin set but with a cheap motor and black windows to hide the lack of interior. No extra tooling or production skills or jigs needed, the cheap version just misses out certain stages and uses a couple of different part bins.
If they are going to surrender the cheaper end of the Market to Piko and others then they need to get the quality sorted again or they may find the cheaper brands are closing the gap on quality quickly and putting them under real pressure. What happens if Piko follow the example of Hornby, Bachmann and Dapol in OO and duplicate models in their range squeezing their exclusiveness?
Sorry but I think LGB is bumping along still and needs to innovate to get back into toy shops too. I know one big retailer has told Marklin that the high prices have hammered sales and asked why their costs went up so much more than other brands when they are using similar production facilities, they are trying to get this point across and suggested a solution. If the shops are saying this and having to check locos due to the quality issues then it suggests those in the know are concerned that they haven't got it right.
Good points from Gareth & Alan but I still think a stripped down Stainz with cheaper motor and less detail parts makes more sense than a separate loco in the toy range later with all the extra parts to produce and store.
This is the avenue Hornby has taken successfully with something like their Railroad Range Blue Rapier set which uses identical mouldings to the premium Javelin set but with a cheap motor and black windows to hide the lack of interior. No extra tooling or production skills or jigs needed, the cheap version just misses out certain stages and uses a couple of different part bins.
If they are going to surrender the cheaper end of the Market to Piko and others then they need to get the quality sorted again or they may find the cheaper brands are closing the gap on quality quickly and putting them under real pressure. What happens if Piko follow the example of Hornby, Bachmann and Dapol in OO and duplicate models in their range squeezing their exclusiveness?
Sorry but I think LGB is bumping along still and needs to innovate to get back into toy shops too. I know one big retailer has told Marklin that the high prices have hammered sales and asked why their costs went up so much more than other brands when they are using similar production facilities, they are trying to get this point across and suggested a solution. If the shops are saying this and having to check locos due to the quality issues then it suggests those in the know are concerned that they haven't got it right.
PaulRhB
This Way Up
Yes it is but I'm talking about making a starter range easier to produce cheaply not the main range. If you wanted you could upgrade the motor later but don't assume a cheaper motor is rubbish, just not as smooth at low speeds and making a slight noise rather than silent. If the model omitted the valve gear and glued in figure and had a cheaper (not rubbish motor), you could probably knock £40-50 off the production cost as it removes parts and production processes.stockers said:
They used to do stripped down detail versions in the start sets anyway and I never understood why they started to produce the cariacature toy train locos and shorty US 2-4-0 rather than choosing a real loco which could be used by modellers as well as those less knowledgable about the prototypes. The digi start set was a good example of how to do it with two basic real locos and a good set of wagons and track but the new operation seems to have skipped the lower end that LGB used to recognise as important and only be aiming at the premium end without hitting the required quality yet.
I've heard from a reliable source that the quality control issues were partly caused by targets driving production in the new plants without a proper Quality control in place to make sure they weren't just throwing it together. That explains a lot of the faults mentioned in the last 4 pages.
I'm very pleased with the LGB stuff in my collection but I can't agree with the original post that all is back to where it was as it plainly isn't from my own and others on here's posts about problems. I value all the traditional qualities Mike, Chas and yourself have mentioned but I think they are eliminating a large section of new modellers from getting the LGB bug by not having the cheap introductions that I used to get a start in European NG. I bought a Saxon Meyer as my first LGB loco, after having several cheap Bachmann locos, and then bought a couple of start sets to have more Euro locos to go with it, (blowing most of the the budget on a big loco you see
). Even allowing for inflation percentage wise they are a quite a bit more than I paid and wouldn't have got the extra points and track that allowed me to have a decent layout at the start. I'm not suggesting halving prices just a few economies and branding start sets as toy train to show they are different from the main range. The detail differences would also prevent ebay rip offs to those who know or do a easy bit of research on the web.
PaulRhB
This Way Up
stockers said:
Assuming you meant Vic's statement then toytrain had been around for years so not likely to be the reason for bankruptcy. Certainly my local shop found it a strong seller and it introduced a couple of our group to LGB. The most reliable sourced stories we've heard for the financial difficulties was the sudden rush to produce all the new scale models, LGB eXtra, Standard gauge German and US, Harz 2-10-2's etc that didn't sell as well as expected for the big investment in such a short time and they no longer had the traditional German company protection from the banks.
Yes we can afford it but as I said above are they relying on others now to introduce G scale and then just hope to grab the wealthier modellers? Hardly a good stratergy for selling all their accessory lines. Talk to the big retailers and ask them how much they are selling now compared to a few years back, even allowing for the recession, and I'm sure you'll hear what they are telling me that LGB is pricing themselves out and the shops are selling other brands instead. Add the comment from someone that Jeremy is now having to test all the locos which he didn't use to worry about. One retailer is seriously talking to LGB about their pricing because they really believe in LGB and want to re-establish it as their main line for rtr.
Here's Jeremy's set page, http://www.dragon-gscale.co.uk/train-sets-170-c.asp all the Piko sets are sub £200 the Bachmann ones come in just over and their big sets are the same price as the cheapest LGB set. Are the two traditional LGB sets really worth 20% more than the dearest others with the current quality issues, and the £50 price price drop to the better priced Big Train set by LGB appears to be just for two simpler wagons. If they did what I suggested for the loco they could probably match Bachmann for price without loss leading it and newbies could buy a point and siding or extra stock too. Do a similar budget version of the Schomea diesel or the original kof and you have a good entry point. Those few pounds make the difference when you start out.
Its fine to say we buy it because it's worth the extra but you are also relying on new modellers following you in to sustain LGB's sales and investment and that's what I think is currently at risk.
Exactly. Like a guy told me once when I complained about costs of things during my old car days "don't like it, get another hobby and quit bugging those of us who are quite content with things the way they are". The hobby became much more fun when I figured that cost was not to be a concern anymore, just spend when you can, and don't when you cannot. It is to be fun, if it is not, don't do it.Stainzmeister said:
As for the Lehmann Toytrain line....the one loco I have (German made) is less than fully impressive compared to LGB products. The Czech made cars on the other hand, they did become part of the LGB program unlike the locos and are nice.
The one thing that maybe has escaped a few posters (EDIT, RhB Paul has hit the nail on the head) IS that Marklin-LGB do sell a simplified set already, 72400/70400:
http://www.lgb.com/de/produkte/schm...e/produkte/schmalspursortiment/packungen.html
It can be had for around $300-350 from the US vendors, EUR 245 in Europe, not sure UK pricing tho.
Also, Modell-Land were spliting the sets and the simplified Stainz could be had for EUR90 from them.
(...EDIT, and I think Paul's idea of a simple diesel would help matters too, maybe bring back the classic 2090N)
chris m01
Registered
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of a low price is forgotten."[/font]
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The point I have been trying to make, along with a few others, is that other manufacturers products are NOT poor quality. The finish, runnig and longevity (only eight years for mine) of USA Trains and Aristo is up to the mark (IMHO).
The price of USA Trains steam outline locos make LGB locos look very reasonable and their wagons are generally similer in price to LGB or slightly more expensive, so other manufacturers are not necessarily cheaper. The wagons do have metal wheels as standard which, for me, makes them better quality.
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The point I have been trying to make, along with a few others, is that other manufacturers products are NOT poor quality. The finish, runnig and longevity (only eight years for mine) of USA Trains and Aristo is up to the mark (IMHO).
The price of USA Trains steam outline locos make LGB locos look very reasonable and their wagons are generally similer in price to LGB or slightly more expensive, so other manufacturers are not necessarily cheaper. The wagons do have metal wheels as standard which, for me, makes them better quality.
stockers
Trains, aircraft, models, walking, beer, travel
Chris M said:
Absolutely agree with you. Some manufacturers produce very good quality products (Some don't). As you point out Aristo is 'up to the mark' - and, as you say, so are thier prices. Other manufacturers produce very good models (The train line brand looks promising - Buhler motors and all - time will tell).
The recent direction of this thread is that maybe LGB could dumb down its product to beat the other starter sets on the market. Its a bit like asking Merc to compete on price with Kia.
vsmith
G Scale indoors, O Tinplate, Micro Layouts
stockers said:
It wasnt like EPL went under right out of the blue, some saw it coming a year in advance. They went belly up because of bad business decisions by the brothers, and was discussed way back when EPL did the Big Hindenburg.
Now back on course...LGB is becoming exactly what I feared it might try to become, a higher priced more "Beautique" brand like Accucraft or Brawa. Piko seams to aiming at that TOYTRAIN price bracket with their new US profile engine, I wonder, if they've addressed some of the Saddletankers shortcomings then they might very well corner that market. Marklin seams not to care about that market right now, which in a down market to me, is questionable.
MTheStrong
Registered
I think that 3Valve makes a very valid point. It is important that Maerklin get the feedback necessary to improve the quality of their products. I am very much looking forward to the new Saxon locomotives and have already begun putting funds aside. I have also preordered the OEG tram and wagons.
vsmith
G Scale indoors, O Tinplate, Micro Layouts
3Valve said:
I should have added to my last comment that we all know more or less what happened but that it really was unimportant at this stage.
I agree its good that Marklin has kept the brand alive, I just wish I could afford some of it. :brokeheart:
Cliff George
Registered
According to my G Scale Journal, which arrived today, GRS have, in their words, 'big price reductions on LGB' and a claim to try and match any advertised price. Also I note that Glendale have some quite heavy reductions at the moment. Granted GRS and Glendale generally tend to be amoung the pricier operators.
Has anyone tried price matching at GRS?
Cheaper prices but original LGB quality and I think Markelin will make a success of LGB.
Has anyone tried price matching at GRS?
Cheaper prices but original LGB quality and I think Markelin will make a success of LGB.