Starting out with old LGB equipment

Nighthaunt

Nighthaunt

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Hi Guys,

I'm hoping you might be able to offer me some advice or point me in the right direction. Being fairly young I don't have a mass of disposable income and liking a bargain I've managed to pick up an LGB 55005 (serial sadly without the parallel upgrade) and 55016 control (again without the P parallel upgrade). I have a Stainz starter set, a very old Lehman porter (Rusty) engine starter set, a Bachmann 4-6-0 D&RGW engine, an LGB Lake George and Boulder american style Stainz 23171, and my pride and joy - Piko 37430 green crocodile.

I'm looking at fitting decoders to these - only question is since I'm starting with serial central station MTD system would like some element of future proofing on the decoders to be fitted to locos so don't need to change them if/when I change to MTS3 / Piko system (pure massoth well out of my budget).

The 23171 loco for example turns smoke on by moving metal arm to touch contact at base of chimney to carry the current - I'm assuming its simple to convert to DCC management of this?

Any advice gratefully received to a novice who's managed to get a basic DCC system off eBay ( also got Jumbo power which I'm currently using - the ability to park trains on sidings and control / fit sound to Piko Crocodile is what's tempting me - assuming Piko's decoders will work with LGB serial commands for sound etc...?

Many Thanks

Alex
 
Welcome to the Forum Alex..
Broad church here, so anything goes..
The serial MTS system may be a little limiting as time goes by, I am afraid. You will find it expensive to start 'chipping' loco's. - Especially if you want sound as well. Not sure if there are any on here who use Piko decoders, so you might need to look elsewhere for definitive help with those.
Yes, it is not too difficult to connect the Stainz smoke unit to a decoder. BUT I would not start with the Stainz. - There is not a lot of room to fit a decoder in a Stainz, and as a first project, the Croc is a nice big 'box' to put things in. ;) Just be aware it will need a bigger decoder, as it has two motors.

Enjoy!
PhilP.
 
I would have a look at Massoth M, L and XL decoders.
These will work perfectly well with Serial and parallel messages (I just checked).
There are several people om this forum regularly fitting Massoth kit so questions should be relative easy to answer and 'Muns' on here is a local dealer.

http://www.massoth.com/index.en.html you need the 'products' section.

www.gardenrailoutlet.co.uk
 
Hello Alex, and welcome to the monkey house.... ;)

PhilP's advice about starting with your Piko Croc is good - as he says, plenty of room in there to fit everything easily before you start working on the much more limited spaces in your other locos.

Personally, if you want DCC and sound in the Croc I would go with a Massoth XLS for it. It's not the most cutting-edge piece of decoder design, and I know a number of folks on here prefer other brands (ESU, Zimo, Uhlenbrock etc) but in my experience the XLS is relatively simple, robust and easy to connect, and pretty reliable. If you buy one from someone like our own Mark ("Muns") here on the forum (Garden Rail Outlet) then he will supply it to you pre-loaded with your chosen sound files and with everything else already set up so all you have to do is wire it in. Some of the other decoder makes have plenty of different bells and whistles (pun intended!) but can require a bit of fiddling around with CVs in order to set them up the way you want them - with the XLS you can generally just install it and use it.
Being a relatively old design, I'm pretty sure that the XLS can quite easily be set up to respond to serial DCC commands - I'm not sure that can still be said of some of the more "cutting-edge" new decoders?

If and when you do manage to get, say, a full Piko DCC system you should have no compatibility problems, except for adjusting a couple of CVs to put the decoder(s) back into Parallel mode.

That's my two penn'orth of advice - as always, worth exactly what you paid for it! ;)

Jon.

Edit: Alan (Stockers) posted while I was writing this, good to see that he pretty much agrees! :)
 
Just to help out serial decoders work fine with newer dcc systems. Also most new chips from Zimo Esu and others can be set to work fine with a serial system by altering one cv. Differs for different makers but often listed as LGB mode, check on here before buying and we can check and point you to where it is ;)
 
Thanks guys,

Really appreciate all the help and advice :)

Was thinking about the Piko decoder and sound system for the croc - I will have to research but think it lists as comparable with LGB MTS systems.

Regards and thanks

Alex

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Further to give you guys an idea of where I'm going/what I'm doing :)

Currently track going down (and being taken up) inside so no permanent setup. Will be looking at creating a permanent way outside this year subject to funds and circumstances (permission granted but need to plan out and get an idea - space is very limited R2 curves at maximum so limited to LGB/Piko as will be using R1 due to space in places if doing continuous circuit).

For my serial central station and 55016 controller I paid just about £100 - so less than Parallel stations normally go for. I didn't want to spend a great deal as not sure with simple circuit if analogue would be a better option (have jumbo controller so well sorted for analogue and could power central station or if get into DCC sell the jumbo and remote which should get close to funding a MTS 3 start set or Piko central station and controller).

Hence I'm starting cheap with serial as if never use it not wasted a fortune, but can fit some decoders starting with the croc so can run analogue or digital (depending how I feel on day) - although having trains parked on passing loops / sidings with digital would be a bonus :)

Hopefully that makes sense - start very cheaply with Serial and can upgrade to parallel (either MTS / Piko / Massoth) at a later date - massoth / lgb decoders should work with serial as well as parallel.

Does this seem like a sensible plan? I've got controller 55016 with the speed dial - do I also need a universal remote 55015?

Many Thanks

Alex

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The 55016 controller with the speed knob is fine for running DCC locos and operating the sound functions - what you can't do with it is operate points and similar devices by DCC, or read/write CVs to reprogram decoders, for which you would need the 55015 Universal remote. However if you can't find a cheap 55015 but still want to be able to program decoders, then you could look at a SPROG programmer instead which will allow you to do that on your computer (and much more easily than you can do with the 55015!).

Jon.
 
Totally agree with the suggestion of the SPROG hardware & JMRI software for programming. A great bit of kit.

The thing is though Alex, I can't help thinking buying the cheap and limited old MTS was a false economy. OK you've spent £100 on the old LGB system but for less than £140 you could have bought something like an NCE PowerCab to see if you get a taste for DCC, and got a more modern and more capable "starter" DCC system that can control and program modern decoders etc. I suppose a drawback with something like the PowerCab is its lower maximum voltage compared to the usual for G scale, but I've test run LGB locos with my PowerCab with no problem - I don't like to race stuff around at full tilt anyway! My PowerCab also acts as another throttle on my full 10 amp 18 volt NCE ProCab system too.

As far as decoders go, it's also worth remembering that for some small low power locos you can get away with "high power" versions of decoders intended for smaller scales, and save money compared to typical Massoth & LGB decoders. These small scale decoders probably won't have the LGB serial pulse support though :-[
 
Very true - wasn't planning originally on going DCC - sort of put in a silly bid on the central station and won ;) only since then have done some research and found out more about DCC.

Jon - thanks for the heads up on SPROG programmer - I must admit will be using manual points for some time yet so sorted a cheap 55016 as couldn't see myself changing to electrically operated points this year - and plan was sort of to consider and try out cheap serial DCC which will allow me to park trains in passing loops before then deciding if warrants moving up to a better system ( and knew LGB name - returning to hobby after 18 year break), so a SPROG programmer solves the setting of CV values (no idea what these are BTW) and will continue to be usable if do upgrade to parallel / Piko / Massoth or Lenz systems in the future.

Well looks like need to figure on saving up for about £200 to cover massoth XLS decoder for BR194 croc (2 motors + sound) and a SPROG programmer - should then be able to run the croc - for other locos can run as normal analogue with the jumbo power unit until I get more locos digitised.

Lots of catching up to do ;) and saving to be done ;)

Many Thanks

Alex

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Doing some more reading ( as regards non lgb / massoth / Piko ) the Digitrax Super Empire Builder 5A system seems good value as with transformer available for under £300 - would seem to be parallel - or should I stick with massoth type systems? (LGB/Piko/Massoth variants).

Think best bet ATM is use my cheap serial bargain and get a feel - decoders will work with whatever system end up upgrading too if I do upgrade (or with analogue if stick with analogue and Jumbo power unit and remote).

Hmm much more complex that 1996 options ;)

Alex

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Manufacturer of equipment can be a fairly emotive issue, people naturally like what equipment they have and are used to using.
That said, there is a common thread through most equipment. It should be NMRA compatible, then most things (but not everything) will work with it.
An advantage with Massoth/LGB type equipment is that there is a lot of experience on here to help and it most definitely works. That said, obviously I have just shown the bias I referred to earlier in this post!
 
Yes, there will be lots of different opinions on DCC equipment, I'll try and be objective.

I would not buy Piko decoders or sound add ons. They are all rebadged products from others and are usually cheaper to get them direct from the actual manufacturer.

I can't help agreeing with Nick that constraining yourself by using the Non NMRA LGB serial function stuff is a very bad move. Getting decoders with serial support is going to limit your choice and put up the price. I'd be tempted to put the serial DCC stuff back on evil bay and get a decent DCC system with the funds released.

For your croc you don't need to go to full digital control AND sound from day one. Get a decent driving decoder with a SUSI connector and add the sound later as funds allow. The full package can be done for a lot less than £200.00 (about £120 for what I would install).

I would not bother with the SPROG and spend the money saved on a decent DCC system, one that will support the free DecoderPro anyway (sadly this does not include Massoth, LGB and Piko).

Just my pennysworth.
 
Welcome to the great world of DCC Nighthaunt. Two bits of encouragement here. Remember that serial/parallel doesn't matter for the basics: running trains; changing points & signals and loco lights (plus F1). Second, if you do decide to go for more recent DCC kit, you don't have to upgrade everything at the same time. I'm still running locos which use serial (including sound functions) although the vast majority of my kit is parallel LGB.

You've made a great start choosing a simple, cheap system to kickoff. If you'd like a chat about decoders, LGB DCC or alternatives, I'd be delighted to help. I've been using DCC in G scale since 1999!

BY the way, if you are within sensible travelling distance of Worcestershire, you'd be welcome to visit my line.
 
Thanks whatlep - sadly down in Kent so a bit too far for a visit. Although knew would end up having to upgrade a basis system should let me run trains while save up and fit decent decoders to my locos - then should hopefully have some practical experience to make sense of the various systems abs pick one to upgrade too.

Many Thanks

Alex

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Nighthaunt said:
Thanks whatlep - sadly down in Kent so a bit too far for a visit. Although knew would end up having to upgrade a basis system should let me run trains while save up and fit decent decoders to my locos - then should hopefully have some practical experience to make sense of the various systems abs pick one to upgrade too.
Click to expand...

No problem Alex. One other thought for you to mull over. Probably the most important bit of kit you will acquire will be your handset. Much of the real "intelligence" is built into that, not the central station. So don't rule out mixing kit from manufacturers who don't have an obvious presence in G scale. Especially if their kit has enough power and is cheaper than "the usual suspects". For example, one of my regular pals on the Open Day circuit runs a Lenz DCC central station & booster arrangement with Zimo chips and either Massoth Navigators or his smartphone/ tablet via what I can only describe as witchcraft. It works brilliantly! I'm not myself a convert to using smartphones for model railway control, but I do love my Massoth Navigator.... :-*
 
I am in Kent - near Tenterden - happy to help. I run LGB3 and Massoth.
Always a good idea to see what and how others do it.
As for Massoth Navigators - excellent. (wont work with LGB1 though)
 
Having re-read my original post should point out by fairly young I mean under 40 ;) must be getting sensitive about my age ;)

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stockers said:
As for Massoth Navigators - excellent. (wont work with LGB1 though)
Click to expand...

Or MTS 2 :(
 
Well the 55016 controller arrived today so set up the MTS 2 serial central station powered by jumbo controller and the 55016 to check they both worked - powered up and display on controller so thought let's try it in analogue mode to control a train ;)

Picked an old LGB 23171 loco - put controller to input 0 (analogue) put train on track and humming from engine - but no movement. 10 minutes of removing train trying to change controller back to loco address 0 etc... to no avail, reading controller paper manual to check I had done correctly. Then downloaded and read central station manual - ah-ha had to set central station to analogue to allow controller to control analogue.

Well train on track and working perfectly - steady full light and smoke (has metal swing arm which when touching a metal bolt at bottom of smoke stack causes smoke as current can run) no matter speed or stationary (although until at half speed motor hums).

Now had Seuthe smoke fluid in and was smoking lovely but chimney seemed to get quite hot - is this normal for DCC or analogue on DCC (don't think there's a difference from my reading)? And advice or is this just normal and haven't seen as normally run my trains at scale narrow gauge speeds rather than a scale 200mph speed.

But I can see the advantages - simulating shunting with this engine full smoke as it slowly moves around - something impossible with pure analogue control where to get the voltage to smoke needs to be travelling at quite a pace.

Getting keener on DCC - can't wait to get my first DCC decoder fitted loco (likely croc with Massoth XLS simply because of simplicity and complete comparability with any future DCC upgrades I may do). Will let me experience DCC sounds such as station announcements and start up / shut down sequences.


Still researching SPROG (2 or 3) for programming as much cheaper than a 55015 module and programme attachment gubbin thing ;) and can set various functions using JMRI (may have letters in wrong order) software.

Regards

Alex


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