Signals on narrow gauge lines

[nygma]

I am not really familiar with British railway signals, especially not with signals used in narrow gauge lines. I have visited a couple in last few years, but I don't remember seeing too many signals. There is non on the pictures I have taken.

So my question is: are there any? Do you have some pictures? Or they are the same as mainline signals on a shorter post?

 

[Gizzy]

I am not really familiar with British railway signals, especially not with signals used in narrow gauge lines. I have visited a couple in last few years, but I don't remember seeing too many signals. There is non on the pictures I have taken.

So my question is: are there any? Do you have some pictures? Or they are the same as mainline signals on a shorter post?

The WHR (and the FR) have modern signalling of the disk type.

This example is at Pont Croesor. There are white indicator lights at the top and bottom of the disk....

 

[D J Mason]

Hi

Signals on narrow gauge railways in England are very much the exception (as are narrow gauge railways).

I would assume that you are referring to 3 foot railways 1:20 scale

The Ravenglass and Exdale had none

The Southwold had "home" signals at the stations

The Rye and Camber had none

Most narrow gauge railways operated using a "train staff" (this was a piece of metal in the form of a large key) carried on the engine

This was the legal authority for the train to proceed NO outer train was allowed to move

The Isle of Man was fully signalled

The above is only a rough guide as you don't specify which railway you are referring. The smaller modern English private narrow railways operate one engine in steam with a train staff so no signals.

 

[Gizzy]

I am not really familiar with British railway signals, especially not with signals used in narrow gauge lines. I have visited a couple in last few years, but I don't remember seeing too many signals. There is non on the pictures I have taken.

So my question is: are there any? Do you have some pictures? Or they are the same as mainline signals on a shorter post?

The WHR (and the FR) have modern signalling of the disk type.

At Tanybwlch on the FR, there are both Disk and Colour light signals, as well as a semaphore type on display.

The modern signalling though is obviously a DoT requirement as these days, the FR is a passenger railway....

 

[C&S]

Some British narrow gauge lines had signals, many did not. As a rough rule of thumb, lines originally owned by main line companies and that conveyed passengers would probably have signals of a similar pattern to the parent company, but with posts scaled down to suit the smaller sized trains. So the Lynton & Barnstaple had LSWR-style signalling while the Welspool & Lanfair was provided with GW-style signals. On the other hand I don't think the Leek & Manifold (North Staffs/LMS influence) was ever signalled.

3ft gauge lines usually tended to have signalling, - the railways on the Isle of Man had a broadly British style with some local ideosyncracies, while the Irish narrow gauge lines were signalled and were in effect miniature standard gauge installations following local traditions. Often the signalling contractor was Mackenzie & Holland who provided a signal post with a very tall finial with an "umbrella" instead of the more normal ball, halfway up the spike.

In the small gauges the example that stands out is the Ffestiniog who, being first in the field, developed their own signals, including rotating discs (used I think as Distant signals) while starters and signals protecting junctions were lower quadrant.

More industrial lines would probably not have had signalling, unless local circumstances or operating methods demanded some form of safety measure. This would probably be an ad-hoc solution, locally designed and made. It is worth noting that with increased traffic in preservation days, a line that never had signals in its independant days may well have acquired them later.

Most narrow gauge lines have had their histories published and the relevant book should provide details of specific situations.

 

[nygma]

Thanks a lot. When I mentioned narrow gauge I was referring to 3ft gauge and semaphore signals. I like the mechanical action of these signals and I was thinking about building one based on a prototype.

 

[pugwash]

On the other hand I don't think the Leek & Manifold (North Staffs/LMS influence) was ever signalled.

They operated a one engine in steam policy, so no signals were needed.

 

[duncan1_9_8_4]

the ravenglass and eskdale had their radio signaling paid for by british rail when they used the whole line for tests before introducing it on heavy british rail. also, they have a impressive signal box and semaphores at ravenglass!

 

[Alec K]

The 'Dartmoor Gauge' lines showed interesting variations in practice. At 4' 6" gauge, I suppose they just count as narrow gauge! The Plymouth and Dartmoor Railway, horse hauled until closure (1823-1916) had no signalling at all, but its associated company, the Lee Moor Tramway, also horse hauled on its lower stretch to Cattedown Wharf, was fully semaphore-signalled with interlocking gates at the flat crossing of the GWR main line at the throat of Laira sheds and goods yard. The last horse-hauled train to use this crossing did so in August 1960.

The 3'6" East Cornwall Minerals Railway (1863-1908) also used semaphore signals at three depots, showing all clear (arm lowered into post or white light), caution (arm raised half-way or green light) and danger (arm horizontal or red light). The line was worked on the time interval system, and also used a single-needle telegraph- traffic in mining days was heavy.

The 4' 6" gauge Redruth and Chasewater Railway (1824-1915) linking the heart of the Cornish copper mining district with the port at Devoran, was signalled after conversion of the line to loco haulage in 1854. To quote from the Company Rules of 1854:

The Signal ALL RIGHT or COME ON, is shown by the cross arm at the top of the post, being fully extended, or shown directly facing the Train.
The Signal to STOP is shown by the Red Ball at the top of the Post, being exhibited directly facing the Train.
The Switch Signals at the Weigh Bridge and at Nangiles, are - for the Main Line, being CLEAR, and ALL RIGHT, the white diamond near the top of the post being shown. For the 'Turnout', or Siding, being CLEAR, and ALL RIGHT, the Green Ball being shown at the top of the Switch-post.

These arrangements fell into disuse in the final years of the Redruth and Chasewater line as traffic fell away with the closure of the mines and the brickworks, and the availability of only one engine fit enough to haul trains, and that with a boiler operating at a reduced pressure because it was allegedly uninsurable. Only the disc signal at the entrance to the Devoran Quay sidings and engine sheds was used as it was on a tight and virtually blind bend.

I would suggest that there's a lot of opportunity for some very imaginative signalling on models of British narrow gauge lines of the past.

All the best

Alec K

 

[Rhos Helyg Loco Works]

This example is at Pont Croesor. There are white indicator lights at the top and bottom of the disk....

The lights are yellow, indicating proceed at caution due to the spring-loaded (sort of) point at the end of the station.

At Tanybwlch on the FR, there are both Disk and Colour light signals...

In both the top and bottom pictures the colour light signal is used in normal operation by trains departing from the right hand track. The disc signal is used by trains doing a wrong-line departure from the left hand track.

 

[ge_rik]

There's an interesting article on safety practices on the Southwold Railway which (briefly) mentions signals in the Feb 2003 edition of their newsletter:

http://www.southwoldrailway.co.uk/newsletters/february03.pdf

One of their combined home/starter signals is shown in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygtjCLh4YBs&feature=player_profilepage

and also in this photo

http://www.southwoldrailway.co.uk/photos/album.php?photid=35&setid=2

I noticed that this month's Railway Modeller's railway of the month (an 0-16.5 narrow gauge layout) featured some very nicely constructed signals - including a combined home/starter similar to those on the Southwold.

Rik

 

[stockers]

Some narrow gauge libe (Rheidol for example) used signals only as a 'request stop' at stations - otherwise it was the one engine in steam system using a staff or token as already noted here.

 

[Rob]

@ Rhos Helyg, 'fraid thats not entirely true,

the signals with yellow indicator lights are found on the approach to stations that have a yard, and therefore a shunt token, If the lights are lit it means the shunt token is still in its slot in the wall of the station building/ops office, if the lights are out it means that the token has been withdrawn and is in use, so the driver should slow the train and expect to find a train in the station ahead.

the normal red disks are literally a "stop, obtain token and permission to proceed" board.

The condition of the trailable points is indicated by a white lamp next to the track, if the light is out the driver should stop the train and with the assistance of the traincrew clamp the points in the appropriate position.

Rob (WHR trainee guard)

 

[Rob]

Sorry don't seem to be able to edit posts using IE9!

The board at pont croesor also requires you to activate the crossing by rotating the token through 180 degrees in the switch below, you can just see it on Gizzy's photo. This all has to be done really quickly as the crossing activates pretty much immediately, so you have to activate it, give right away and get on the train before the crossing times out (30 seconds!!!!)

Stations on the RHE with a shunt token are Dinas, Rhyd Ddu and Port, not sure about the FR, but I think its Minnfordd, Tan-y-Bwlch and Blaenau, but I cant be certain as I don't sign the FR, yet

 

[Rhos Helyg Loco Works]

@Rob

Looking again at the photo you are, of course, correct Rob. I'm not familiar with the arrangement at Pont Croesor but it matches the other WHR stations. The situation I described with the yellow lights is that used at Tanygrisiau on the FR where two yellows are needed before departure. Its been a while...

Until 2008 there was no such thing as a shunt token on the FR, and I am not aware that that situation has changed since. Shunting at Minffordd, Tan-y-bwlch and Blaenau is usually performed within station limits and the Limit Of Shunt boards, and all protected by interlocked and track circuited signals.

Tony (ex-driver FR and WHR(C))

 

[Rob]

your right, looking through the rule book the section on shunt tokens states that it is WHR only, hadn't realised! suppose I should read it more!